From: Hallam-Baker, Phillip [mailto:pbaker(_at_)verisign(_dot_)com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:46 PM
To: 'terry(_at_)ashtonwoodshomes(_dot_)com'; Hallam-Baker, Phillip;
'IETF MARID WG'
Subject: RE: DEPLOY: Legal liability for creating bounces from forged
In this case it would suffice to notify the purported sender that
a message from them failed validation. It is not necessary to
quote any of the text of the message.
NOT if you are among those who believe the email is reliable
transport. Once your MTA has accepted
an email you are obliged to either:
1) deliver it
2) return it as undeliverable
If your understanding of English law is that you would be performing
a criminal act by doing so, then your duty to the Queen would surely
claim a higher priority than the mere opinions of this group?
I fail to see the relevance, but anyway, I am only loosely a British subject, I
am Canadian. And
whether or not I am/am not criminally liable, does not protect me from civil
although much civil suits are done frivolously, suits with less subtance then
what we described have
been won (bouncing when email known bad and bounce recipient known invalid).
I need to protect myself from criminal AND civil liability in ALL countries
where I do business.
One way that the spec could be improved would be to state that the
sender SHOULD notify the purported sender without mandating the
use of a particular mechanism, specify bounces as the fallback
Fine. But if you believe that SMTP is used for reliable
communication, you have to do *something*
Like fix the mess that is the SMTP spec.
What do you propose instead? Silently delete it?
Lets see, more than 90% sure its garbage, delete it unless the
sender suggests some other disposition.
And that's what I do not consider to be acceptable behaviour. Nor should
anyone. If we did, we
could just set our spamassassin scores low and let spamassassin kill anything
that looks even
That's just an example, so before you say "MARID is not about killing spam..."
but the charter is
about mail authentication which is supposed to be a stepping stone toward
fighting phishing, spam
Pass it off to the original recipients
postmaster? Neither is viable or acceptable in the context
of RELIABLE message transfer.
SMTP is not a reliable mail transfer protocol, neither as
originally described or as implemented.
WRONG on both counts.
Try to stick to the facts please, I quote from RFC 821:
"The objective of Simple Mail Transfer Protocol (SMTP) is to transfer mail
And most MTA's (all that I have used) treat SMTP as a reliable messaging
system, either send the
message, or indicate that it was not sent.
The first step towards making SMTP reliable is to put authentication
The "culpable mental state" of Mens Rea is not applicable here:
1) We are bouncing BECAUSE we know the email to be bad with
reasonable high probability,
We have no specific knowledge that the email is pornographic.
Mens Rea is not applicable to inanimate objects such as computers
and statues and has not been since 950 or thereabouts.
No, but it IS applicable to those who use tools/weapons to perform deeds to
their design. I am
going to quite, because the argument is moot, suppose in some countries there
is no criminal
liability. In a significant portion of the internet (United States comes to
mind) there could be
criminal and/or civil liability implications by implementing sender id.