On 05:52 21/09/2005, Hallam-Baker, Phillip said:
The origins are military, the Romans were the first engineers. The root
is ingeniosus, meaning "skilled".
Yeap. Or "in genere" which means to puts his "gen-" (same as ADN
gene, conception, genius, live, "gens"=extended familly, gang ) into
something. This is complementary to the "architect" who says what is
behind (archi) what is built. The first architect and ingineer is
God. The term degraded to the military engineer - through Romans etc.
down to French Polytechnic School by Napoleon, and ARPA. Civil
Architects and Engineers were at work very early when you see the
Iraqi and the Roman water systems or Pyramids. (Cartographers should
not be forgot as they were the most important ones [deciding of the
taxes on land] and being the applied mathematicians).
The military engineers were protected and made responsibles by their
Military Rank received through a "Brevet" and the civil engineers
were protected and made responsible by their "Lettres Patentes" (the
King or an authority acknowledging their competence or their rights
over an invention). This developped under Louis XV and Louis XVI due
to a guy named Beaumarchais who generalised the concept to the
authors and to copyrights, finding this way to make benefits which
were used to finance French unformal support to the Insurgents (La
Fayette) and once stabilised to a broad part of American War budget
(so the USA are sons of the French poets). Today a right on an
invention is a "Brevet" in French and a "Patent" in English. We see
that some Americans want to patent everything (including softwares)
making everyone an engineer and an IPR holder, and Europe just
refused to follow them to such extent considering that Open Source
was a better economic and societal approach.
This is also the same problem IESG currently faces with RFC 3066 bis,
hence my opposition. Is a language a commodity defacto "patented" by
a IANA registry managed by Unicode, or is a language a common
cultural right of those using it, documented by an ISO 11179 conformant
Something which may be fun to some: when the Abbé (priest) Chappe
started the first telecommunication system (panthograph) he met a
problem when somebody built a castel in between two pantographs. He
explained that to Louis XVI (the fellow who sponsored the first human
flight and the first parachute jump in his Versailles Castle). The
King gave him a "Lettre Patente" granting him the right to forbide
such buildings between two pieces of land used or to be used for
Panthograph Towers. This created the Telecom monopoly and forced
Chappe to buy lands and to set-up communication rates to pay for
them. These lands became military lands under Napoleon (back to
military engineering) to protect communications (up to Moscow). When
Marconi invented Radio they took 20 years to start thinking of TV. TV
need local towers: they used Chappe's properties. Today TV in France
is supported by a public common service to all the TV Chains, using
them. I suppose Wi-Fi is around. From ADN genes to ADSL memes ...
The military engineers were always responsible for more than building of
siege engines, they would also build the earth works for attack and
The term 'civil engineer' was coined to differentiate building of public
works from the military form. I have a feeling it might have been
Brunnel who coined the term but it might be earlier.
During the 19th century engineers were the rock stars of the day.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
> Behalf Of George Swallow
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 8:23 AM
> To: Jeffrey Hutzelman
> Cc: JFC (Jefsey) Morfin; swallow(_at_)cisco(_dot_)com;
> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC - Bail money for IETF 64?
> > Unfortunately, the English term can carry either of these meanings,
> > depending largely on context. It is applied to people who drive
> > trains (because they operate an "engine", to people who provide
> > technical support, and also to people who design complex
> electrical or
> > mechanical systems or structures. You have to know from
> context which
> > is which.
> It's my (non-authoritative) understanding that the term
> engineer originally meant someone who built engines (think
> seize engines, etc).
> When locomotive were first invented they were not very
> reliable so the guy who drove them was a kind of 'field
> support engineer' and the name engineer stuck.
> George Swallow Cisco Systems
> (978) 936-1398
> 1414 Massachusetts Avenue
> Boxborough, MA 01719
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