--On Friday, 04 April, 2008 11:39 +1300 Brian E Carpenter
On 2008-04-04 09:54, John C Klensin wrote:
(1) If someone doesn't become a Trustee until her or she is
willing to sign something, one either needs to have explicit
provisions for what happens if someone declines to sign or
willingness to sign has to be an explicit condition for
membership in the IAOC. Since several of the IAOC members are
ex-officio, I don't really see how to do the latter, but it is
This change to the admin procedures is a no-op, since it
merely repeats what is said in 6.1(a) of the Trust Agreement.
So it's clear enough: someone who hasn't signed is *not* a
Trustee. If an IAOC member fails to sign and is not subject to
IETF recall, that sounds like an HR issue to me. I don't see
what we can do in our texts, so I support the proposed change
(even though it's a no-op).
Brian, the recall process, even if we figured out how to use it
in practice rather than in theory, takes months. So, if we do
things this way, we need to change the selection requirements
for an IAOC member (and that includes the IETF Chair and IAB
Chair) to include a formal commitment to willingness to sign.
That is why this proposed change, even though I understand why
you call it a no-op, may be wrong. Wouldn't it be better to
figure out a way to get someone to sign as part of the relevant
selection process, effective when they are seated as IAOC
members, so that we don't have a potential race condition or
problem after they are seated? See the difference?
(2) Because some members of the IAOC are appointed by (or
ex-officio from) other bodies, I would prefer that, if there
is going to be a separate Trust Chair, that person be
required to be an IETF appointee and subject to recall. No
matter how many "the Chair is nothing special" rules one has,
we all know from experience that long-term (as distinct from
rotating) chairs of long-lived bodies tend to be treated,
externally at least, as spokespeople, etc.
I agree that the two staff positions in the IAOC (IAD and ISOC
President/CEO) should not be eligible as Trust chair, since
there is no recall path. (Obviously I don't suggest that
either of them is otherwise unsuitable ;-)
Well, the IAD _is_ unsuitable, not because of any issues with
the incumbent, but because the optics of having the IAD, who is
selected and supervised by an IAOC subcommittee, chairing the
Trust (or the IAOC for that matter) are just not attractive.
But I also said "IETF appointee", presumably including the IETF
Chair, the IAB Chair, and those appointed by the IAB, IESG, and
Nomcom. You seized on the "subject to recall" part, which was
less important, especially how frequently we use the recall
process to correct problems. Perhaps I should have said "IETF
appointee and therefore subject to the IETF's current version of
public flogging" instead. If we are going to preserve the
IETF-ISOC relationship that was so carefully negotiated in RFC
4071/BCP 101, then I don't think that an ISOC-appointed member
of the IAOC should be permitted to be IETF Trust Chair.
(3) I don't recall seeing it before, which may be my fault,
but the provision that, if the IAOC is dissolved, the Trustees
become permanent appointments and get to determine the Trust's
fate is very unattractive. Probably the Trust and/or IAOC
procedures or charter should be modified so that, in the event
of the demise of the IAOC, the Trust falls firmly under direct
IETF control (unless the IETF itself ceases to exist). There
might be other ways to do it, but perhaps the termination of
the IAOC without other provisions should immediately add the
entire IAB and/or IESG (or whichever one survives),
ex-officio to the voting roster of Trustees for the duration.
That really fills a small gap in the Trust Agreement (which
talks about what happens if the IETF or IESG ceases to exist
but not if the IAOC ceases to exist). I think you're correct
that it could be improved, but can we separate that from the
current proposed changes?
Sure. Especially if someone explains why the other changes have
to be done on a hurry-up basis.
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