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Re: [dkim-dev] dkim validation software and mail lists (sympa)

2009-10-01 03:18:27
On Thursday 01 October 2009 00:08:24 Serge Aumont wrote:
 Thanks for all your answers.
thank you for asking and careful consideration.

 I agree with John Levine comment on his paper  (
 http://weblog.johnlevine.com/Email/threemyths.html ). He is true telling
 that mailing list software will still continue to modify messages they
 broadcast in a way that may break signatures.
acknowledged. despite it limiting the ADSP=ALL usefulness.

 Those modifications are requested by users.
meeting user demand is core business.

 There is a strong social pressure to add a footer in
 all messages that include a "one click unsubscription link" .
well signers could use a body length tag in the signature, however like most 
options, its more work for implementers and administrators.

 Of course
 that's because MUA does not recognize the List-Unsubscribe: header, but we
 can't change this.
Can only request features and hope for a cleaner future.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=29041 (or just wait)

 I don't think it is acceptable to rewrite the From: . This hypothese can't
 be generalized to any mailing list server.
I'm not sure what you mean 'can't be generalized to any mailing list server.'

 Don't imagine  that all mailing list software will change and all users 
will update there server.

Those that change and update will reduce burden on receivers maintaining 
whitelists of trusted third party dkim signatures or senders. Those receivers 
then can place stricter ADSP=all filtering rules in place.

 So "discardable is not compatible with domains that may use mailing list
 located outside.
good to have that clarified (as least for me - others seemed to have grasped 
that already)

 Here is what Sympa 6.1b already does with DKIM signature. Any comment is
 welcome.

Verify any incoming signature. Use this result in order to decide what to
 do with the message.

have you decided what to do with:
signature=invalid,adsp=unknown?
signature=invalid,adsp=all?

my preference is reject as I don't expect the input to a maillist to have 
broken signatures. Don't know if this is suitable for all. Consider it at 
least as the default option.

 (may be used to prevent backscattering when sending
 automatic answers
Giving the list-owner the chance of reducing the rules going to request_auth 
for subscribers is a good thing. 

if dkim can be included in the default scenarios it would save breakage when 
dkim_feature is turned on(I assume).

As long as there is no default scenario lines with true()...dkim... -> do_it 
it should be fairly anitspam safe and putting some scenario documentation on 
the dangers of this configuration would be good (aka dkim spammers welcome).

maybe even only process ' true()...dkim... -> do_it' rules in scenarios if ' 
'true()...smtp... -> do_it' also exists.

 or may be use to trust the From: before accepting message).
i'm not sure I understand the 'before accepting message' part and how that 
effects processing.

Sign automatic answers (welcome message etc)  and digest messages with it's
 own signature For messages broadcasted to subscribers :
great!

test if the signature is still valid after message processing, remove the
 DKIM-Signature if not.
this was the mailman approach. It was the easiest solution with receivers 
rejecting failing signatures.

its consistent with http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dkim-deployment-08 
8.4

 add a Sender: listname-request(_at_)domaine header

Not quite the same as what rfc5322 says but not totally incompatible either.
I curious as to the purpose of this? To support a third party signing policy?

sign the message if some conditions are verified. Example if a email
 challenge was confirm to prove the validity of the "From:". The conditions
 where Sympa add a signature can be tuned for each lists. It should not be
 the same for a news-letter or a open discussion forum. Here is what Sympa
 will do in a near future.

I'm not sure there should be a condition. Just sign all messages.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dkim-deployment-08 5.5

It gives downstream verifiers a nice field to whitelist on.

test incoming ADSP and reject "discardable" messages if the list is not
 configured to preserve incoming signature (even if the signature is valid)

quick thought - low priority

send a warning to the subscriber on subscription attempts that:
1. have a ADSP discardable policy
2. on lists that will not preserver signatures 
3. where the subscriber will have permission to post

add a new list option that globally hide the following features which
 usually breaks DKIM-Signature : subject tag,
(cut)
message content personalization depending on each subscriber attributes.
 This option will force preservation of DKIM-Signature but I don't think we
 will use it for our own service. Daniel, we will develop it just for you 
 ;-)

yay - /me does a happy dance. Thank you. I'm sure others will find this useful 
too.

Thank you Serge,

-- 
Daniel Black
Infrastructure Administrator
CAcert

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