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Re: [Asrg] Re: TitanKey and "white lies"... (Faking SMTP hard errors "improves" C/R utility?)

2003-06-02 06:24:35
From: Scott Nelson <scott(_at_)spamwolf(_dot_)com>

...
Never use absolutes, they will always get you in to trouble.

Many absolutes, including that one, can get you into trouble.

Suppose that all challenges included the Message-Id: of the 
quarantined message in it's In-Reply-To: and/or References: header.
(like all DSNs should - grrr)

Then as long as mail clients can recognize message-ids they've created,
it's a simple matter to accept any you've generated, and discard any
that you haven't.  (Handy for those forged return address bounces too.)

So few users know what a message-ID is, and so few of those who do
know have the least clue about the message-IDs of their last dozen
sent mail messages that it is safe to make the absolute statement that
no users could ever distinguish valid from bogus spammer challenges
with message-IDs.


If you're worried that spammers will start forging plausible ids 
for their In-Reply-To: headers, or that's too hard for your computer
to remember a few thousand IDs, here's a simple way to create them.
id = "UTC.N@" . md5sum(UTC, N, domain, secret);
...

How many people are going to manually check the last few days of mail
they've sent looking for the message-ID of a new challenge?  Obviously
no one, including practically all C/R advocates will bother.  If any
users were willing and able to do that, there would not be a continuous
flood of questions from people asking how their computers managed to
send spam when they weren't looking when they get a forged bounce.

Even if you modify everyone's MUA to record the Message-IDs of outgoing
mail (no, not all MUAs do that, not even when configured to record
outgoing mail), the absolute statement that no one would manually
check Message-IDs is still more than "5-nines" true.  You would have
to modify MUAs to automagically check "sent folders."

This sub-thread started with the observation that many of us can't
remember to whom we sent mail, and you want us to remember Message-IDs?
If manual (or automatic) checking of Message-IDs could work, then so
would manual (or automatic) checking of "sent folders" for recipients
(except for .forward files, aliases, etc.).


IMO the killer problem with C/R is the "automated notice of 
something important" message.  Frequently, those don't even have 
a valid return address, much less a human that will click 
on your web site.

That's also a killer.

C/R systems depend on and will in practice devolve into whitelisting
systems.  It would be good to finish the C/R protocols, IDs, or whatever,
and move on to the whitelisting mechanisms that C/R systems require.
That's where most of the utility will lie.  You'll need protocols or
some sort of mechanical support to exchange self-signed certs, PGP keys,
or whatever to foil spammer attacks on the whitelisting system.


Vernon Schryver    vjs(_at_)rhyolite(_dot_)com
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