Microsoft's comments have been noted for future reference.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Williams" <jwkckid1(_at_)ix(_dot_)netcom(_dot_)com>
To: "Ian King" <iking(_at_)microsoft(_dot_)com>
Cc: <klensin(_at_)jck(_dot_)com>; <galvin+ietf(_at_)elistx(_dot_)com>;
<JimFleming(_at_)prodigy(_dot_)net>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: It also could prove highly embarrassing....
Ian and all,
Ian King wrote:
Fleming has indeed attacked the reputation and character of IESG members
- perhaps you missed that.
I must have. Reference please? In waiting for such a creditable
reference,
let me be clear. I can see where Jim has been critical of the "Methods"
that the IESG and the IETF employ. I join him in some, but not all, of
those
critical positions. In as much as these criticisms may be offensive to
some
IESG and IETF members, we should all be willing to take and review
our own actions, positions, and practices in a light that is beneficial
regardless of the content of these criticisms, and use them to improve
the IETF and the IESG, rather than trying to shoot the messenger....
I was offended - I know many of these
people, I know that they serve as volunteers and work very hard, and
I've seen nothing to suggest that Mr. Fleming has made any contribution,
anywhere, that entitles him to the same standing as these people, nor to
make his baseless accusations.
I believe you are forgetting IPv8... None the less he has brought allot
to bare on what can be possible that is a departure from the status quo
in some areas of technical innovation and standardization...
I did not "personally attack" the messenger; I attacked the message, and
was quite careful to do so.
I "announced" my intent to filter Mr. Fleming's "noise" as a statement
of "consensus" to the voiced statement that this person generates little
but noise.
This seems to be an attack of the messenger right here Ian! Do you deny
that? I hope not...
Your statement about "freedom to remain ignorant" is
ill-taken; as I stated in my previous paragraph, over a considerable
course of time I have seen nothing in Mr. Fleming's posts to suggest
that he is making any meaningful contributions.
I am indeed sorry that you have decided to take my comment of
"freedom to remain ignorant" as ill-taken. I often choose to remain
ignorant of some things as I cannot possibly become enlightened
about everything. Can anyone? I think not...
It is a convenient
refuge to claim that one is "misunderstood", "censured" or even
"censored", to seek some sort of intellectual martyrdom, when in fact
one's statements are pure and unadulterated drivel.
Again you are indeed entitled to your opinion. However your personal
opinion about another is really not relevant here I don't believe, is it?
If
it is, than there is obviously a process and attitude problem that is
being
accepted that possibly should not be. ????
Fleming's posts
often do not even pretend to have any relevance to anything within IETF
- for instance, the Milosevic post I mention - and they therefore damage
what credibility he might be able to garner.
He was using that as a comparison from and international legal
position. I would have thought that was quite obvious. One might
consider that and extreme comparison, but none the less it is relevant
in that context.
And it is demonstrated
that they mislead those who are new to the IETF environment - a
sufficient justification for censure, if not censoring.
There is never a reason for censure or censor, it is on it's face
wrong. Unless of course one would take the view of a dictatorial
posture is proper. I don't. And I do not believe that the IESG
has in the past or should not, nor should the IETF....
I respond to you individually, so as not to generate even more noise on
this mailing list - not because I do not stand by my statements. I've
copied the chairs so that they may be privy to this conversation. --
Ian
I have no problem with this or any exchange with you or anyone being
public...
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Williams [mailto:jwkckid1(_at_)ix(_dot_)netcom(_dot_)com]
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:32 PM
To: Ian King
Cc: Jim Fleming; Harald Tveit Alvestrand; Ole J. Jacobsen;
poised(_at_)lists(_dot_)tislabs(_dot_)com
Subject: Re: It also could prove highly embarrassing....
Ian and all,
Ian King wrote:
Don't flatter yourself. What Ole suggested below is NOISE suppression
-
a worthy goal.
Mr. Fleming, if you have something of relevance to say, say it. I
fail
to see the relevance of, say, your posting from a news item about
Slobodan Milosevic. Vague accusations and insults aimed at IESG
members
don't accomplish anything meaningful, either.
I personally have not seen any insults or accusations made by
Jim at any time. I have seen some potential comparisons. If you
or anyone does not accept those comparisons, than that is just fine.
But to personally attack the messenger is not a reasonable manner
in which to deal with your disagreement.
I've now read enough of your posts to have verified, for myself, that
you contribute nothing useful to this mailing list. Therefore, I
shall
now apply my own local "Fleming filter", in my mail client.
That's fine... I didn't know we all needed and announcement of such
though...
Freedom of speech is not a license to compel others to listen - Ian
King
True. Freedom to remain ignorant is also just fine as well...
DISCLAIMER: the foregoing is my personal opinion, and in no way
reflects
the official opinion or position of my employer.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Fleming [mailto:JimFleming(_at_)prodigy(_dot_)net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 8:26 AM
To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand; Ole J. Jacobsen
Cc: poised(_at_)lists(_dot_)tislabs(_dot_)com
Subject: Re: It also could prove highly embarrassing....
http://www.bilderberg.org/
"News is what someone, somewhere is trying to suppress, the rest is
just
advertising" - Lord Northcliffe, British Press Baron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harald Tveit Alvestrand" <harald(_at_)Alvestrand(_dot_)no>
To: "Ole J. Jacobsen" <ole(_at_)cisco(_dot_)com>
Cc: <poised(_at_)lists(_dot_)tislabs(_dot_)com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 4:35 AM
Subject: Re: It also could prove highly embarrassing....
anyone with a mail server can establish a poised+censored list.
I won't, for the same reason I gave away ietf+censored.
It WOULD be an improvement for many of us.
--On 3. juli 2001 15:52 -0700 "Ole J. Jacobsen"
<ole(_at_)cisco(_dot_)com>
wrote:
Can we have a POISED+Censored list, please?
Or perhaps just a Fleming filter?
Regards,
--
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 118k members strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail jwkckid1(_at_)ix(_dot_)netcom(_dot_)com
Contact Number: 972-447-1800 x1894 or 214-244-4827
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
Regards,
--
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 118k members strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail jwkckid1(_at_)ix(_dot_)netcom(_dot_)com
Contact Number: 972-447-1800 x1894 or 214-244-4827
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208