Re: [Detnet] WG Review: Deterministic Networking (detnet)2015-09-18 14:14:51I like this change. Any objections? Thank you! Lou On 9/18/2015 2:04 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: Lou, I would suggest the following: OLD Candidate Layer 3 data plane technologies that may be used, without modification, include: IP and MPLS. NEW Candidate IETF data plane technologies that may be used, without modification, include IP, MPLS, and Layer 2 encapsulations that run over IP and/or MPLS, including but not limited to pseudowires and GRE. (I changed "Layer 3" to "IETF" so that we don't get into the debate over whether MPLS is layer 3 or not). Cheers, Andy On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Lou Berger <lberger(_at_)labn(_dot_)net <mailto:lberger(_at_)labn(_dot_)net>> wrote: Andy, On 9/18/2015 12:52 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Adrian and Lou, > > When I first read the draft charter, my immediate reaction was that > the scope of work would be deterministic IP and MPLS flows layered > over a deterministic Ethernet infrastructure as defined by IEEE. This > would probably be pretty straightforward work. > > However, your conversation got me to read the charter more closely, > and while the word "pseudowire" isn't used, the inclusion of the PALS > WG in the charter implies to me that the scope of work could include > the transport of deterministic Ethernet flows (as defined by IEEE) > within pseudowires carried by arbitrary IP and/or MPLS infrastructures. PWs has been mentioned as an option, but section of (existing) encapsulation to be used is the subject of the WG. So PALS is included really to cover this possibility. > All of a sudden, the work is much less straightforward. If this is > indeed part of the scope of work, it should be explicit in the charter > (or explicitly excluded if not). > Do you have any suggested changes? (It would help to understand your concern.) Thanks, Lou > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian(_at_)olddog(_dot_)co(_dot_)uk <mailto:adrian(_at_)olddog(_dot_)co(_dot_)uk> > <mailto:adrian(_at_)olddog(_dot_)co(_dot_)uk <mailto:adrian(_at_)olddog(_dot_)co(_dot_)uk>>> wrote: > > Thanks Lou, > > I think we're in agreement that a new WG would be helpful as a > place to > coordinate whatever work is needed and to provide a discussion > forum. This is > partly because there is no existing place where this work wold not > provide a > distraction. > > It is possible that the location for the work is RTG if the > applicability > document is describing the applicability of some of the control > plane protocols, > although applying RSVP would possibly put it in TSV. And if the > work is applying > IP, it might be in INT. Not so sure that this is a really > important issue. > > But I am still left looking at the current charter text and > thinking it is not > describing the applicability statement that we are discussing. If > my paragraph > that you quoted describes the work well, can we do some serious > edits to the > charter to make it substantially clearer what the WG is actually > doing. I might > suggest removing nearly all of the text and replacing it with a > short paragraph > that says something like what I wrote (with perhaps a few more > words). Currently > I find the text confusing in scope and very open to misinterpretation. > > Thanks, > Adrian > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger(_at_)labn(_dot_)net <mailto:lberger(_at_)labn(_dot_)net> <mailto:lberger(_at_)labn(_dot_)net <mailto:lberger(_at_)labn(_dot_)net>>] > > Sent: 18 September 2015 16:52 > > To: adrian(_at_)olddog(_dot_)co(_dot_)uk <mailto:adrian(_at_)olddog(_dot_)co(_dot_)uk> <mailto:adrian(_at_)olddog(_dot_)co(_dot_)uk <mailto:adrian(_at_)olddog(_dot_)co(_dot_)uk>>; > ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org <mailto:ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org> <mailto:ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org <mailto:ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>>; iesg(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org <mailto:iesg(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org> > <mailto:iesg(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org <mailto:iesg(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>> > > Cc: 'detnet WG' > > Subject: Re: WG Review: Deterministic Networking (detnet) > > > > Hi Adrian, > > I have to say that there were times that I felt the same as > you, and > > questioned what a DetNet WG would / should do. I think you hit > the key > > points in your mail and the main work that needs to be done is > to say > > how all the pieces fit together when operating over IETF owned data > > planes, i.e. IP and MPLS, without modification. I think your last > > paragraph summarizes the work to be done quiet well. > > > > > Are you sure that this work is more than an applicability > statement that > shows > > > how existing tools are used to achieve the desired function. > This document > > might > > > cover data plane, OAM, packet classification, configuration, > control plane, > > > security, etc. That would be useful work and would probably > need a WG to > > achieve > > > the necessary discussion. > > > > This answers the question that the work belongs in the IETF in > some WG, > > but doesn't say that a new WG is needed. I came the conclusion > that a > > new WG is needed to ensure that the overall solution "works" and > that > > the data plane details are sufficiently defined. > > > > Does this help? > > > > Lou > > > > On 9/18/2015 11:38 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > > > Hi IESG, > > > > > > I am struggling to understand why this work is being proposed > in the Routing > > > Area. Actually, I am slightly struggling to understand why it > is being > proposed > > > for the IETF. > > > > > > This is not say I don't think a WG is needed, but the only > work I see > described > > > here is a documentation of data plane work and an "overall > architecture". I > > > assume that any modification to a layer 2 data plane will be > carried out by > the > > > SDO that owns that data plane. In particular, if changes to > Ethernet are > needed, > > > they will be done in the IEEE. So, that leaves us with work at > L3 for which > the > > > proposed charter text says IP or MPLS. Now, it seems to me > that any change > to > > IP > > > or MPLS in the forwarding plane is alarming, and also that any > change to IP > > > would need to be done in the Internet Area. > > > > > > At the same time, the charter explicitly puts discussion of > control plane > out of > > > scope. > > > > > > Are you sure that this work is more than an applicability > statement that > shows > > > how existing tools are used to achieve the desired function. > This document > > might > > > cover data plane, OAM, packet classification, configuration, > control plane, > > > security, etc. That would be useful work and would probably > need a WG to > > achieve > > > the necessary discussion. > > > > > > Adrian > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: IETF-Announce [mailto:ietf-announce-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org <mailto:ietf-announce-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org> > <mailto:ietf-announce-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org <mailto:ietf-announce-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>>] On Behalf Of > > The > > >> IESG > > >> Sent: 18 September 2015 15:51 > > >> To: IETF-Announce > > >> Cc: detnet WG > > >> Subject: WG Review: Deterministic Networking (detnet) > > >> > > >> A new IETF working group has been proposed in the Routing > Area. The IESG > > >> has not made any determination yet. The following draft > charter was > > >> submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. > Please send > > >> your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg at ietf.org <http://ietf.org> > <http://ietf.org>) by 2015-09-28. > > >> > > >> Deterministic Networking (detnet) > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > >> Current Status: Proposed WG > > >> > > >> Assigned Area Director: > > >> Deborah Brungard <dbrungard(_at_)att(_dot_)com <mailto:dbrungard(_at_)att(_dot_)com> <mailto:dbrungard(_at_)att(_dot_)com <mailto:dbrungard(_at_)att(_dot_)com>>> > > >> > > >> Mailing list > > >> Address: detnet(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org <mailto:detnet(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org> <mailto:detnet(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org <mailto:detnet(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>> > > >> To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > >> Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/detnet/ > > >> > > >> Charter: > > >> > > >> The Deterministic Networking (DetNet) Working Group focuses on > > >> deterministic data paths that operate over Layer 2 bridged > and Layer 3 > > >> routed segments, where such paths can provide bounds on > latency, loss, > > >> and packet delay variation (jitter), and high reliability. > The Working > > >> Group addresses Layer 3 aspects in support of applications > requiring > > >> deterministic networking. The Working Group collaborates with > IEEE802.1 > > >> Time Sensitive Networking (TSN), which is responsible for Layer 2 > > >> operations, to define a common architecture for both Layer 2 > and Layer > > >> 3. Example applications for deterministic networks include > professional > > >> and home audio/video, multimedia in transportation, engine > control > > >> systems, and other general industrial and vehicular > applications being > > >> consider by the IEEE 802.1 TSN Task Group. > > >> > > >> The Working Group will initially focus on solutions for > networks that > > >> are under a single administrative control or within a closed > group of > > >> administrative control; these include not only campus-wide > networks but > > >> also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend > energy on > > >> solutions for large groups of domains such as the Internet. > > >> > > >> The Working Group will specify an overall architecture that > encompasses > > >> the data plane, OAM (Operations, Administration, and > Maintenance), time > > >> synchronization, management, control, and security aspects > which are > > >> required to enable a multi-hop path, and forwarding along the > path, with > > >> the deterministic properties of controlled latency, low > packet loss, low > > >> packet delay variation, and high reliability. The work applies to > > >> point-to-point (unicast) and point-to-multipoint (multicast) > flows which > > >> can be characterized in a manner that allows the network to > 1) reserve > > >> the appropriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) > release/reuse > > >> the resources when they are no longer required. The work > covers the > > >> characterization of flows, the encapsulation of frames, the > required > > >> forwarding behaviors, as well as the state that may need to be > > >> established in intermediate nodes. Candidate Layer 3 data plane > > >> technologies that may be used, without modification, include: > IP and > > >> MPLS. > > >> > > >> The working group will document which deployment environments > and types > > >> of topologies are within (or outside) the scope of the DetNet > > >> architecture. This work focuses on the data plane aspects and is > > >> independent from any path setup protocol or mechanism. The > data plane > > >> will be compatible with the work done in IEEE802.1 TSN. > > >> > > >> The Working Group's scope explicitly excludes modifications > of transport > > >> protocols, OAM, Layer 3 forwarding, encapsulations, and > control plane > > >> protocols. > > >> > > >> DetNet is chartered to work in the following areas: > > >> > > >> Overall architecture: This work encompasses the data > plane, OAM, > > >> time synchronization, management, control, and security > aspects. > > >> > > >> Data plane: This work will document how to use IP and/or > MPLS to > > >> support a data plane method of flow identification and packet > > >> forwarding over Layer 3. > > >> > > >> Data flow information model: This work will identify the > information > > >> needed for flow establishment and control and be used by a > > >> reservation protocol or by YANG data models. The work will be > > >> independent from the protocol(s) used to control the flows > > >> (e.g. YANG+NETCONF/RESTCONF, PCEP or GMPLS). > > >> > > >> Identification of additional YANG models: This work will > document > > >> device and link capabilities (feature support) and resources > > >> (e.g. buffers, bandwidth) for use in device configuration > and status > > >> reporting. Such information may also be used when > advertising the > > >> deterministic network elements to a control plane. > Control plane > > >> related information will be independent from the > protocol(s) which > > >> may be used to advertise this information (e.g. IS-IS or > GMPLS > > >> extensions). Any new YANG models will be coordinated with the > > >> Working Groups that define any augmented base models. > > >> > > >> As needed, problem statement: This effort will establish the > > >> deployment environment and deterministic network > requirements. > > >> > > >> As needed, vertical requirements: This effort will detail the > > >> requirements for deterministic networks in various > industries, for > > >> example, professional audio, electrical utilities, building > > >> automation systems, wireless for industrial applications. > > >> > > >> To investigate whether existing data plane encryption > mechanisms can > > >> be applied, possibly opportunistically, to improve > security and > > >> privacy. > > >> > > >> The WG coordinates with other relevant IETF Working Groups, > including > > >> CCAMP, PCE, PALS, TEAS, OSPF, IS-IS, TSVWG, and 6TisSCH. As > the work > > >> progresses, requirements may be provided to the responsible > Working > > >> Group, e.g. PCE, TEAS, and CCAMP, with DetNet acting as a > focal point to > > >> maintain the consistency of the overall architecture. The WG > will liaise > > >> with appropriate groups in IEEE and other Standards Development > > >> Organizations (SDOs). > > >> > > >> WG deliverables include: > > >> > > >> As standard track or informational RFCs > > >> > > >> Overall architecture > > >> Data plane specification > > >> Data flow information model > > >> YANG model augmentations > > >> > > >> WG sustaining/informational documents may include: > > >> > > >> These documents may not necessarily be published, but may be > > >> maintained in a draft form or on a collaborative Working > Group wiki > > >> to support the efforts of the Working Group and help new > comers: > > >> > > >> Problem statement and (constrained) deployment environments > > >> User-driven use cases > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Milestones: > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
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