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RE: [ietf-dkim] mutant message validation, was Base issue: multiplelinked signatures

2007-01-05 12:11:58
There is a close parallel here with HTML and XML

HTML requires processors to be lax which causes real problems because people 
rely on laxness

XML requires processors to be strict which causes real problems because the 
systems end up brittle.


I don't see a problem with heuristics. The problem is caused by reliance on 
heuristics. I don't think that is an issue here. The job of doing the 
heuristics is sufficiently a pain to ensure that there are not going to be a 
lot to rely on. SHOULD NOT is sufficient to ensure that coverage is not enough 
to create reliance.

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-dkim-bounces(_at_)mipassoc(_dot_)org 
[mailto:ietf-dkim-bounces(_at_)mipassoc(_dot_)org] On Behalf Of Michael Thomas
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:36 PM
To: ietf-dkim(_at_)porcupine(_dot_)org
Cc: ietf-dkim(_at_)mipassoc(_dot_)org
Subject: Re: [ietf-dkim] mutant message validation, was Base 
issue: multiplelinked signatures

Wietse Venema wrote:
John Levine:
  
From my perspective having a message have a valid 
signature with 
one
          
implementation and having a broken signature with another is an 
incompatibility.  I don't think that's speculation. ...
        
No, it merely reflects a difference of opinion by the sites 
concerned as to what changes it will tolerate in a 
message before it 
recommends to its clients that the message should be 
dropped. It is 
not the job of our standard to dictate local policy 
issues at that level of detail.
      
I agree that we are not dictating local policy.  But I 
really think 
that it's our job to dictate the definition of what the signature 
validation algorithm is.  As I've said before, everyone 
remains free 
to do whatever they want with messages whether or not the 
signature 
verifies, including applying various heuristics to develop 
opinions about unsigned messages.
    

Perhaps some people are confusing verification and presentation.

Verification: it is critical that all DKIM verifiers agree 
on what is 
a valid DKIM signature, without falling back on heuristics, such as 
heuristics to repair messages.

Presentation: after the valid/invalid decision is 
irevocably made, it 
is up to application/policy to decide how/if things will be 
presented 
to users.  Heuristics of various sorts can be useful in 
this domain, 
such as message repair, known signer associations, etc., but those 
heuristics must not determine the validity of the DKIM signature.
  
I really don't understand all of this hand wringing about 
True Verification vs. Mutant Verification Intent on Taking 
Over Earth. The protocol document needs to be precise about 
what it takes for a properly written verifier to verify a 
properly signed message. That's it. Trying to make normative 
any or all of the ways _not_ to verify a signature is not 
only a waste of time, it's a hopeless task. Having 
informative text to guide implementors with potentials 
gotchas, corner cases, and other possible misinterpretations 
is fine to a point, but making them _normative_ makes no 
sense whatsoever.


       Mike
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