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Re: [ietf-dkim] New Issue: protecting a domain name vs. protecting a domain tree

2008-04-08 13:12:15

Can we just park the "was consensus reached/documented" aspect
of this thread for a couple of days? I'll go back through the
archive and see if the ball was dropped (by Barry and I) or not.
But that'll take a day or two.

S.

Dave Crocker wrote:
Eliot,

I am trying to be careful and specific in the things I am posting, here, and 
you 
and others need to be the same. My goal is to get discussion going.  Yours 
appears to be to stop it. Unfortunately, that has often been at the root of 
problems in this working group.

Let me repeat the bottom line, once again:

      There is nothing in the mailing list archive that demonstrates working 
group rough consensus on the matter of extending ADSP's scope to include more 
than a single, exact-match name.

      The record *does* contain discussion about the problems with attempting 
this expanded scope.

So please stop repeating broad references that turn out to be invalid or off 
the 
point.  The substantiation for this assessment is in the remainder of this 
message...


Eliot Lear wrote:
1402 and 1534 were specifically mentioned and discussed in Philly in 
Jim's presentation 
<http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/dkim-0.pdf>.

"1402   Duplicate of 1534    Applicability of SSP to subdomains"

The above text contains the only reference to either of the documents in 
Jim's 
slides.  To the extent that it "proves" discussion took place, it is content 
free.

And let's get very clear about something:  I did not say there was no 
discussion.  So your "proving" that discussion took place in Philadelphia is 
not 
the issue.


   In fact, 
between the two they've been discussed at multiple meetings.    We know 
this because the mechanism has changed over time and was presented as it 
changed.

Since I didn't claim otherwise, I'm not sure what your point is.

In any event, it would be nice to see documentation of the details in such 
discussion and what it's conclusions were.

But most importantly we need to see documentation of consensus on the mailing 
list.

You do not address this fundamental IETF requirement. And by "address" I mean 
point to specific details that provide confirmation.  Generic document 
references don't help, particularly when it turns out that they do not prove 
your point.


   You can continue to traipse through the minutes of previous
meetings (my own recollection and the minutes confirm 
<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/07mar/minutes/dkim.txt> that is that 
the group spent time on this very issue in Prague). 

1. For perhaps the third time: the minutes do not contains the strings 1402 
or 
1534. The only reference to "tree" is:

    "Discussion focuses on subdomains, wildcards, tree-walking."

While, yes, it's entirely reasonable to take that as proof that something was 
said, it does not provide any content.  In particular, it doesn't even 
describe 
the claimed conclusions.


You did not 
object.  My own recollection of the Prague discussion was that we 
specifically considered the positives and negatives of tree walking as 
well as a domain existence query, but perhaps the audio i lying around 
if you want to go to more detail.

Concerns about sub-tree details have been expressed repeatedly and broadly 
over 
the months.

Whether I, in particular, voiced them in Philadelphia, seems to be a rule you 
are attempting to enforce as meaningful and I can't guess why.


Putting aside that procedural issue, the fundamental basis for your 
concern is that there are two independent systems that have no basis for 
interdependency.  

I'm pretty sure that what I said does not strictly map to your 
characterization 
of it.

Were you attempting to engage in constructive dialogue, rather than shut this 
thread down, the question of its equivalence or difference strikes me as 
potentially useful for improving everyone's understanding of the issue.  So 
it's 
a shame that you have chosen to take such an adversarial stance.


   But your premise is false, and the issue is 
specifically raised in the current -03 draft, here:

Qouting an entire passage always feels comforting.  However I do not see 
which 
bits of text are on point or how.  To the extent that your own comment is 
meant 
to clarify this:

No A record required, as Frank and I mentioned earlier.

my constantly referring to A record probably is, indeed, distracting.  I'm 
happy 
to substitute all of my references to A with NXDOMAIN.  I believe it does not 
change any of the technical, administrative or operational concerns I raised.


Perhaps I have missed some text that you are referring to.  Could you 
correct me?

I don't understand what you are asking for.  Text that says what?

d/
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