Re: Documenting the problems (Re: Level of consultation (Re: a note abou

On 12:59 04/10/2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand said:



> --On 1. oktober 2004 13:48 +0200 "JFC (Jefsey) Morfin" <jefsey(_at_)jefsey(_dot_)com> 
> wrote:
> > I apologize for not having followed the debate over the IETF
> > administrative structure as I should have probable done it .
> > Dave's response seems to be the first I find interesting and
> > illuminating (may be I lost others).
> >
> > Is there a draft/wiki documenting all the IETF problems?
> Jefsey,
> have you read RFC 3716 ("The IETF in the Large: Administration and 
> Execution") and RFC 3774 ("IETF Problem Statement")?
Dear Harald,
I apologize again about my Frenglish which lead to confusion. I had read 
quickly these RFCs when published. I retained the feeling that one dealt 
with the problems of interrelating with the existing IETF partners, and 
that the other was about the internal IETF life problems. But none about 
the real IETF problems. I then used the then image that one was about 
outside wall painting and the other about inside wall papers, but none 
about the walls themselves and about what they have been built for.
I reread them in detail. This is actually an impressive and honest work. 
The current thinking I give on issues which impact the architectural usage 
of the Internet helps me to see better how parts of this work may help. But 
I have an increased feeling they help in no way the current debate, and 
even make the discussion over different scenarii unreal.
To take back my image. I feel the discussion is : we identified that our 
four contractors have some requests about the cleaning of the road, the 
signs and the parking lot when coming to the house, how much they are paid 
and how to best understand what we tell them.  We identified that the kids 
are not really happy with the wall paper, the overload of the parents, the 
TV show in foreign languages and other family life issues. So let discuss 
the tax relief in building a new house in stone or in wood, in McLean or in 
Geneva, may address the problem.
I am sorry. When I talk about "IETF Problem" I see it from an IETF's user 
point of view. This roughly means five things:
1. content, quality and usefulness of the deliverables (let first define 
them and discuss the demand, this will tell where the money will come from)
2. surety, security, stability, adequacy, scalability, sovereignty respect 
when using the IANA post-delivery services
3. currently missing deliverables (standardized code, missing functions, 
digital convergence, multilingualism, maintained documents, test beds, etc. 
etc.)
4. the interest for me to invest in using IETF deliverables. Will IETF foot 
the real digital ecosystem needs? or stay with the 1983 TCP/IP model? For 
how long? What is the contingency plan?
5. what about its competition? I observe usage architectures (P2P, used 
interphone, spam, "Pluggable Edge Viruses", etc.. come from els where. IETF 
does not foster competition.  No alternative architecture worked on at 
SourceForge - a long long fight against alt-roots, a monopoly oriented IPv6 
design etc.. I accept there may are good reasons for that but I worry that 
they have not been fairly and innovatively worked on.
This is why I considered Dave's mail as enlighting. I had the feeling he 
was not that much talking about "photographed problems" but about real 
users life problems.
But rereading this RFCs in this context, show the amountg of the work you 
engaged. I want to thank you for that.
But I am afraid reorganizing the 2004 IETF to better carry its 1986 job and 
redo the 1992 ISOC differently may not be the best target? The lack of 
consensus about the IETF purpose in life has been identified as a key 
problem. Should it not come before any possible rebuild?
And it is not just to say "write Internet documents". Some ideas about the 
deliverables of these documents is needed. The debate may start with the 
"core values" you quoted but is much, much more. At least IMHO.
Thank you for all.
jfc


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