On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Ted Hardie wrote:
At 1:39 PM -0500 9/16/05, Spencer Dawkins wrote:
While it seems plausible that we could use the same mechanism
for protocol design and for process evolution, my understanding
of the Problem working group's efforts and the subsequent
newtrk/icar/proto/mpowr (and yes, there were others) efforts is
that this approach simply does not work.
Spencer,
"simply does not work" is good rhetoric, but it doesn't
fit all the facts. Groups like NomCom and IPR have taken on
tasks and done them, with community discussion of their charters
and with community discussion as their documents went through
the process. They are process change groups, and they work.
From my perspective I would have to say that the preponderance of
the evidence supports Spencer's position. My reaction to your
initial response to Brian's message proposing yet another WG was
"oh, and it will be as successful as newtrk". Of course I could
have added icar or sirs or the others that Spencer mentioned. And
it's funny that you metion IPR as a success ... it seems to me that
a lot of energy was spent to get very little, and in may ways it was
a step backward (e.g., non-IETF folks now have to go to document
authors to get permission to use a MIB etract or program fragment).
For sure, the IPR effort has resulted in a delay of at least 18
months (with the clock still ticking) in getting the MIB review
guidelines doc published (and I suspect, but cannot prove, that it
is largely responsible for the long delay in getting rfc2223bis
published). Even granting that nomcom has been a success -- I don't
know the evidence in that case one way or another -- I'd have to say
that the overall record for process change WGs has been very poor.
In any case I would like to go on record as strongly supporting
Brian's initiative. Given the lack of progress in newtrk and the
like I think it's the only hope of moving forward.
Mike Heard
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