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RE: Translations of standards (was: RE: ASCII art)

2005-11-21 12:22:10
I think that a better case to make wrt internationalization is that it
is hard to see how a pure ASCII  document is ever going to provide a
satisfactory description of a protocol that is based on unicode.

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org 
[mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org] On 
Behalf Of John C Klensin
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 1:52 PM
To: tom(_at_)triagewireless(_dot_)com
Cc: 'JFC \(Jefsey\) Morfin'; 'Paul Hoffman'; ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: Translations of standards (was: RE: ASCII art)

--On Monday, 21 November, 2005 10:11 -0800 Thomas Gal 
<tom(_at_)triagewireless(_dot_)com> wrote:

I understand this. But it restricts RFC to the sole English
(ASCII) language.
Translating RFC as an authoritative text is therefore 
impossible. jfc

    Well there's a reason pilots and sailors and other 
people  who's 
business is truly international use english. We can't  legitamately 
expect technical issues to be drafted in every  language 
(just like we 
can't expect pilots to all know 5
languages) either. While I believe in the cultural and  
intellectual 
value of different languages in exposing  different 
viewpoints and ways 
of thinking I don't believe  there's anything technically 
oriented that 
*can't* be  expressed in english as well as any other 
language. It just 
so ...
Nor
do I have the personal motivation to translate a technical  
document 
to hungarian or spanish though I could, because,  fluent or 
not, that's 
still REALLY hard and depending in any  way on being technically 
colloquial in many languages, and  doing a good job at it.
    That's not to say that anyone won't welcome translations of  
important documents, but perhaps that's a much better job 
for  the UN 
then the IETF.

Tom, let me take this a step further.  Almost every other 
international standards body, ISO and ITU included, end up 
with an authoritative version in one language for technical 
standards and then with translations that are considered less 
authoritative.  I.e., if the translation disagrees with the 
original authoritative version, the latter controls -- there 
is no battle among translations as to which version is the 
most accurate.  Even then, the best of the translations are 
validated by the well-known, but difficult, time-consuming, 
and expensive, process of having independent parties prepare 
back translations to the original language, followed by a 
careful technical
comparison of the two.   For the most technical standards,
translation is typically waived because it is generally 
assumed that, if one is going to get conformance and 
interoperability --and be sure one knows what that means-- 
then there had best be only one version, rather than 
standardized interpretations of it.

And the belief that any of this really has anything to do 
with whether the base document is expressed in ASCII or not, 
or whether its figures use ASCII artwork or images in some 
conventional or standard form, is, to be polite, a stretch:
remember that ASCII is inadequate to express all of English 
accurately.  To use your example because it is handy, while 
more characters than those in ASCII are needed to properly 
write Spanish or Hungarian (as with English), one cannot 
write any of the three, or French, without those characters.  
Things would get much more interesting with Chinese, 
Japanese, or Arabic, but, again, the form in which figures 
are expressed is the least of the issues.

   john


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