John, Stewart and others,
I believe some might have taken my previous note more
personally than intended, as well as John's. As also
made clear by John below, we both looked at this with
a significantly longer time-perspective than just the
last weeks or months, as these issues have been brought
up many times before. I am sorry if someone felt
insulted, that was for sure not the intent.
It is good that we now have discussions trying to figure
out actual cases when more graphics are *really* needed,
then we might actually get out of these discussions with
some new conclusions and agreements that can guide us on
the way forward.
Cheers,
/L-E
----Original Message----
From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf(_at_)jck(_dot_)com]
Sent: den 12 januari 2006 17:41
To: Lars-Erik Jonsson (LU/EAB); Stewart Bryant
Cc: Ash, Gerald R \\\\\(Jerry\\\\\); ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: RE: PDF, Postscript, and "normative" versions (was:
Re: Baby Steps (was RE: Alternative formats for IDs))
--On Thursday, 12 January, 2006 12:28 +0100 "Lars-Erik Jonsson
\\(LU/EAB\\)" <lars-erik(_dot_)jonsson(_at_)ericsson(_dot_)com> wrote:
Before I go on, I continue to be fascinated by the observation
that, each time the "we really need pictures and fancy
formatting and need them frequently" argument comes up, the
vast majority of those who make it most strongly are people
whose contributions to the IETF -- in designer, editor, or
other leadership roles-- have been fairly minimal.
This fascinates me too...
With experience, I believe most people learn that the strict
ASCII format used for RFC's is actually a strong feature of
our ways of working. When I wrote my first drafts, I also
believed non-ASCII graphics were needed and I made multiple
versions (one TXT and one PS) of each draft, but I do not
waste my time on that anymore since I have learned that I
can manage very well without non-ASCII graphics.
While I agree with you, I should stress that the authors of the
current proposal have been much more in touch with IETF work and
much more active than many of their predecessors. We also owe
them thanks for actually preparing a proposal in I-D form rather
than simply complaining about our antiquated methods on the
mailing list. Most of the point I was trying to make was
precisely the one you make, more appropriately, above:
increasing experience within the IETF and with our style of
developing and working on documents (not just publishing them)
tends to cause both patience and respect for the ASCII graphics
and formats to rise. Experience from other standards bodies or
similar entities that work in different ways may or may not be a good
basis for inference.
best,
john
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