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RE: SMTP compared to IM (Re: DNS Choices: Was: [ietf-dkim] Re: Last Call: 'DomainKeys)

2006-11-29 10:02:22
Before the web it was possible to be on a different network and still exchange 
email. It did not work at all well but it did work sorta.

Even though the web did in theory work on other protocols (I ran a server on 
HEPNET) most of the content was on the Internet.

So there was a different value proposition when someone proposed getting an 
Internet connection. People could no longer be fobbed off with 'The JANET 
gateway already allows you to exchange mail with the Internet, its cloured 
books for you until we deploy OSI'.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Burger [mailto:eburger(_at_)cantata(_dot_)com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:06 AM
To: John C Klensin; Dave Crocker; ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: Re: SMTP compared to IM (Re: DNS Choices: Was: 
[ietf-dkim] Re: Last Call: 'DomainKeys)

Actually, as I fuzzily recall in the 1986 - 1992-ish period, 
MCImail had a large presence for business messaging and 
CompuServe had a lion's share of consumer messaging.

Before the flames go on, realize that (1) my memory is fuzzy 
and (2) the market was seriously fractured.  The large 
enterprise market was doing the Notes thing; the small 
enterprise market was doing the cc:mail, netware, etc. thing, 
and interoperability was something that people gave lip service to.

What a difference five years made!  By 1996, pretty much 
everyone interoperated with Internet Mail.


On 11/26/06 10:35 PM, "John C Klensin" <john-ietf(_at_)jck(_dot_)com> wrote:

--On Friday, 24 November, 2006 10:30 -0500 Eric Burger 
<eburger(_at_)cantata(_dot_)com> wrote:

Or, the reality that with (at the time) a single dominant network 
provider made the inter-networking point moot.

Eric, you are being a little cryptic, perhaps unintentionally.
What do you mean about a single dominant provider and at what time?

I would add an observation to Dave's about possibly 
different sets of 
needs by reminding everyone that considerable IM 
functionality (other 
than presence) isn't new.  We had SEND/SOML/SAML from the 
beginning of 
SMTP, even though they had, IMO, a very short practical 
lifespan and, 
even then, were used only in limited communities.  We also we had a 
couple of flavors of the "talk" protocol which were 
certainly heavily 
used in some places.  "Talk" involved a conversational 
session while 
SEND et al was closer to what we would call a short message service 
today.  Off the Internet and in the land of BITNET/EARN/etc., there 
was also an end to end short message protocol and mechanism 
that was 
extensively used.

None of these supported a presence mechanism in the sense that we 
understand it today.  As a result, one had to bind a user 
identity to 
a target host in much the way SMTP does, rather than having someone 
attach to the network at any point and announce presence and, 
implicitly, location.  It is arguably those presence and mobility 
mechanisms and not IM itself that is the recent 
development.  To the 
degree to which those mechanisms are what caused IM to take off, 
perhaps that reinforces Dave's view of different services serving 
different needs.

     john

On 11/22/06 11:13 AM, "Dave Crocker" <dhc2(_at_)dcrocker(_dot_)net> wrote:



Harald Alvestrand wrote:
There were no alternatives to SMTP on an IP network 
until Instant 
Messaging came along.

not since X.400 over X.25 died, no. I thought you were 
older than 
that....

And there were all of the individual providers that 
Michael cited, 
such as MCI Mail.


but can be seen in IM, and may likely show up in other 
forms of 
communication.  Much of this is simply the nature of software.

It has nothing to do with software and everything to do with 
architecture. IM networks have less problems because all the 
participants share a relationship with the IM service providers.

It *is* interesting that the diversity of disconnected email 
services was viewed as a basic problem to solve, whereas 
most of the 
Internet user community does not seem to feel the same 
pressure to 
unify IM.

Hmmm.  Maybe IM satisfies a different set of needs than 
does email.  
So we had better be a bit cautious about trying to generalize 
implications between them.


d/


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