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RE: Domain Centric Administration, RE: draft-ietf-v6ops-natpt-to-historic-00.txt

2007-07-02 08:18:17

From: itojun(_at_)itojun(_dot_)org [mailto:itojun(_at_)itojun(_dot_)org] 


Its not exactly a surprise, folk seem to place a higher premium on 
shooting NAT than anything else. Meanwhile the vast majority of 
residential broadband access is behind NAT.

And from a security point I want to see as much NAT as possible. 
Without NAT we would be in a much worse situation security 
wise than we 
are today. NAT is a blunt instrument but it shuts down 
inbound server 
connects. And that is such a good thing from the point of view of 
stopping propagation of network worms.
(snip)

      a few points.  IPv6 technology really needs to be demystified.

      you do not have to rewrite IP address to ensure that there's no
      inbound connections.  you just have to have a packet 
filter which
      watches/drops TCP SYN or whatever alike.  if you do not 
have enough
      address space to serve your enterprise, it is a good 
reason to use
      IPv6 :-)

My point here is that the principal objection being raised to NAT, the 
limitation on network connectivity is precisely the reason why it is beneficial.

There is no other device that can provide me with a lightweight firewall for 
$50.


        if 
you have RFC3041
      and other tricky systems, your system will have higher 
likelyhood of
      having implementation bugs (violation of KISS principle).

Same can be said of IPv6.

We have a lot of really good ways of avoiding issues we don't like: complexity, 
accessibility, limited access in third world countries. 

Unless the arguments are applied consistently they should not be made at all. 
Otherwise they just become special pleading.


      even if you stop all inbound connections, malicious 
parties which
      controls HTTP/whatever servers can inject your end node 
any kind of
      crufted TCP options, which might cause buffer overflow 
(DoS/privilege
      user hijacking). 

As I told Bruce Schneier after his silly IPSEC and Certification Authority 
papers, security is risk control, not risk elimination. 

It is not helpful to criticise a security measure that empirically offers a 
high degree of security for failing to address cases it is not designed to deal 
with. An HTTP server behind a NAT box is no HTTP server and thus no threat.

In a full default deny infrastructure I can allow the HTTP server external 
access and deal with issues such as HTTP server corruption by requiring the 
HTTP server to run in an isolated O/S partition so that compromise of the 
server cannot lead to compromise of the host.


      spam, phishing and botnet are independent from 
presense/absense of NAT.

I can shut down 95% of existing botnets using reverse firewalls. I have yet to 
find a legitimate network use with an access pattern that remotely resembles 
the access patern of a production botnet.

The approach I propose in the dotCrime Manifesto is that by default the newtork 
access point throttles outgoing SYN and DNS requests to some large number that 
is well short of the needs of spammers, DDoS SYN flooding etc.

      OSes have to be secured by default, that's all.

Linux is ten million odd lines of code. When you have more than a million lines 
of code you can be certain that at least 50% of the people working on it were 
below average in talent. Vista is ten times bigger.

We simply don't know how to build a secure operating system today.


 heavy use of firewall/
      NAT have propagated "false sense of security" inside enterprise

The 'security through obscurity' argument is bogus. 

Back in the early 1990s people were arguing AGAINST the use of shaddow 
passwords in UNIX on the grounds that they give a 'false sense of security'.

I agree that most enterprises have an exagerated idea of what perimeter 
security can do for them, but that does not mean that the solution is to drop 
all the firewalls. That is not what is being discussed when people are talking 
about deperimeterization.


      network, and therefore, many of end systems within 
enterprise are very
      vulnerable to attacks.  the most common attack vector 
these days are
      laptops owned by people like IETFers (goes in and out 
of enterprise)
      or VPN-connected laptops, which carry worms.  so, many 
people purchase
      end node firewall systems ("fire suit" in the old 
terminology), but,
      if your end node operating systems are secure by 
default, you do not
      need those end node firewall systems and/or keep 
upgrading signature
      files.

There is no individual security control that cannot be trumped. Host based 
security can be disabled if the host is compromised. We don't yet have the 
trustworthy systems we need to prevent that attack.

There is no individual security control that cannot be trumped, but we can 
deploy combinations of security controls that make it very much harder for an 
attacker to succeed.

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