Hi,
Four remarks:
This is true, however there is another path that could be taken. Let the host
sign the contract. Then, engage with the PRC government, explain the situation
to them, and ask them to help avoid an embarrassing situation by providing
assurances in writing, to the IETF, the hotel and the host, that the
government
does not support/encourage taking actions against the IETF in reaction to the
actions of some individuals. If individuals break the laws and violate
the customs
of China, let them bear the full brunt of the law, but not the IETF.
First, as you mention further down in your email (reproduced in full below),
its unlikely that PRC officials will take position. However, once the
contract is signed, there are likely significant cancellation penalties
which the IETF would have to absorb, in the case we decided to cancel the
meeting ourselves (for example due to the lack of government assurances).
That is why assurances have to be there first, and only then contracts
should be signed. If we could cancel our meeting ourselves based on the
government input (or lack thereof), at any time and without negative
repercussions to the IETF or to the host, it would be a good strategy to
follow. (But I would still be careful, due to the two points below.)
Second, even if there were assurances, there is evidence that the PRC has
not lived up to those in the recent past, at least not to the extend
outsiders were expecting. I'm talking about freedom of the press/censorship
issues during the Olympics, that *included* censorship of Internet traffic.
The PRC interpretation of assurances given to the IOC, and the resulting
actions against the Internet and the press during the Olympics, were very,
very questionable to me (and, I believe, to the majority of the Western
press).
Third, given the tight alignment of the PRC's executive and judicative
branches, it is unlikely that an outsider would have any likelihood of
success when considering an "appeal" to any executive decision.
Fourth,
Having said that, I've no doubt that the PRC government already has some idea
who could prove to be an embarrassment and those people will not get their
visas delivered in time to go to the meeting. But it is still worth
having the dialogue with the PRC government.
A visa policy as described, by itself, constitutes to me a reason for not
even considering a meeting in that country.
(Please note that I'm not saying that the PRC has such a visa policy. I
don't know.)
Regards,
Stephan
On 10/1/09 2:59 PM, "Michael Dillon" <wavetossed(_at_)googlemail(_dot_)com>
wrote:
Some folk say that we should ignore the language in the draft contract,
because it will not be enforced, except under extreme circumstances. First,
it is never appropriate for people signing a contract to assume that it
won't be enforced, especially when they cannot really know the exact
conditions that will cause it to be enforced. (The term "fiduciary
responsibility" covers this.) Second, these assurances are coming from
people who cannot speak for the hotel or the government. Hence, they are
merely guessing.
This is true, however there is another path that could be taken. Let the host
sign the contract. Then, engage with the PRC government, explain the situation
to them, and ask them to help avoid an embarrassing situation by providing
assurances in writing, to the IETF, the hotel and the host, that the
government
does not support/encourage taking actions against the IETF in reaction to the
actions of some individuals. If individuals break the laws and violate
the customs
of China, let them bear the full brunt of the law, but not the IETF.
Obviously this is not an easy path to take because it takes a lot of patience
and probably many failed attempts at contacting someone in authority who
is willing to seriously dialogue with the IETF. You could try talking to the
Beijing police, you could try asking the hotel and the host for their
government
contacts, and you could try working through various PRC embassies.
But the bottom line is that if the IETF does agree to Beijing and the contract
is signed and some incident takes place at the meeting, and the hotel or
government shut down the entire IETF meeting as a result, it would be a great
embarrassment to the People's Republic of China.
Having said that, I've no doubt that the PRC government already has some idea
who could prove to be an embarrassment and those people will not get their
visas delivered in time to go to the meeting. But it is still worth
having the dialogue
with the PRC government.
--Michael Dillon
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