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RE: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase-06

2017-07-07 08:07:37
Hi Pete, Carlos,

From: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata(_at_)cisco(_dot_)com]  > 
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2017 10:14 PM

Hi, Pete,

Many thanks for the time to read and review this document!

Like Ruediger, I will let the shepherd, chairs, and AD weight in — but in 
the meantime, I
wanted to offer a couple of observations for consideration. Please see 

On Jun 28, 2017, at 2:31 PM, Pete Resnick 
<presnick(_at_)qti(_dot_)qualcomm(_dot_)com> wrote:

Reviewer: Pete Resnick
Review result: Not Ready

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

For more information, please see the FAQ at


Document: draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase-06
Reviewer: Pete Resnick
Review Date: 2017-06-28
IETF LC End Date: 2017-06-30
IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat

Summary: Not Ready for publication as Informational, but might be Ready for
publication as Proposed Standard

Major issues:

This is an admittedly unusual review. I have read through the entire 
and the technical work seems fine, but is well beyond my technical 
so I can't really comment on the technical correctness. However, it is
absolutely clear to me that this is *not* a "use case" document at all

I agree with the assessment that this is not a “use-case” document (in a 
strict or traditional
sense); this document describes a deployment case and a solution to a use 
case, using
existing technology blocks. It does not define new protocol nor (more 
importantly) creates
interoperability considerations.

As the doc shepherd, I agree that this document is more than a use case and 
describes both a use case (sections 1, 4) and a monitoring system (sections 3 
and 6 to 8). And there is even an implementation report:

However, the solution related part does not require stand track document as it 
runs as a standalone device with no need for interoperability. Indeed, the 
solution leverages Segment Routing/SPRING so that a unique node is used as both 
the sender and the receiver. As such, the system is free to use any OAM 
protocol/packet format with no interoperability consideration. It looks to me 
that such freedom is part of this Path Monitoring System use case/system.
Plus, I fear that moving to standard track would mean changing the document 
into a precise specification (e.g. which OAM tool(s) to use and the way to use 
them) which was not the goal, may require significant work and delay, and may 
even be suboptimal in removing freedom.

TL;DR: On my side, I don't feel that the document needs to be standard track. 
But I guess that ultimately the decision is on the AD/IESG side.

and I
don't think it's appropriate as an Informational document.

Now, regarding the most appropriate intended status, I could personally 
argue both sides,
and frankly, I do not have a strong preference or concern either way.

The net of it is that this (informational/specification) document does not 
requirements for SPRING nodes, changes in SPRING, nor exposes 
interoperability issues. It
basically leverages as-is the underlying capabilities created with SPRING. 
From that angle,
Informational is a very appropriate fit. On the other hand, I do not 
disagree with this
document specifying a system, and the play-of-words that results in 
standards-track — so
it is a spec for the path monitoring system, but provides information to the 
network and to
SPRING specs on how the new tech can be used.

Net-net, I see Informational but can understand your rationale.

In any case, what does concern me more is whether a potential change of 
intended status
would add significant delay and reset process timers on a timeline that is 
overstretched and a very slow progress…

This is clearly a
*specification* of a path monitoring system. It gives guidances as to 
recommended, and optional parameters, and specifies how to use different
protocol pieces. It is at the very least what RFC 2026 refers to as an
"Applicability Statement (AS)" (see RFC 2026, sec. 3.2). It *might* be a 
but it is not strictly giving "common guidelines for policies and 
(2026, sec. 5), so I don't really think that's right, and instead this 
be offered for Proposed Standard. Either way, I think Informational is not
correct. Importantly, I think there is a good likelihood that this 
document has
not received the appropriate amount of review; people tend to ignore
Informational "use case" documents,

This, however, I think is an inappropriate extrapolation. Although the 
shepherd, WG and
chairs already considered the intended status, I think it is important to 
re-think what’s best
for this document in the context of the merits, structure and goals. But 
justifying it not
being informational because “people tend to ignore […]” seems a red herring.

and there have been no Last Call comments
beyond Joel's RTG Area Review.

Within SPRING, this document dates the origins of the WG. It was presented 
in many WGs
numerous times and iterated through many versions (within three filenames) 
as various
reviews came in. I’d recommend you also go back and check the timeline. I 
would not also
make hard conclusions based on LC traffic.

Even in IESG review, an Informational document
only takes the sponsoring AD to approve; every other AD can summarily 
the document, or even ballot ABSTAIN, and the document will still be 
(though that does not normally happen). This document should have much more
than that level of review. I strongly recommend to the WG and AD that this
document be withdrawn as an Informational document and resubmitted for 
Standard and have that level of review and scrutiny applied to it.

As I said, I am happy with either status and can see arguments both ways. I 
would not
object to a change.

However, personally, I do not see the need.

Minor issues:


Nits/editorial comments:

This document refers to RFC 4379, which has been obsoleted by RFC 8029. It
seems like the references should be updated.

Indeed. Done in -07 and -08.

Thanks again, Pete!

Carlos Pignataro, carlos(_at_)cisco(_dot_)com

“Sometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to make myself 
sound more


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