spf-discuss
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RE: "RE: Which address of this list shouldauto-responses go?"

2004-08-21 17:18:35
Accuspam,
        Oops!  You got it wrong!

You said:
" That is why Guy helped us with a solution for AccuSpam that insures if I
forget to whitelist a list, the worst that will happen is only one person
who relies email to me via the list will get my auto-response (if that
person does not respond to the auto-response), then the list is blacklisted
for me only, until I whitelist the list in AccuSpam."

No, that is not what I wanted!



Assume guy(_at_)guy(_dot_)com sends to a list.

The list sends to accuman(_at_)accuspam(_dot_)com(_dot_)

accuman(_at_)accuspam(_dot_)com does not have the list white listed.

The accuspam system sends an auto response to 
accuman(_at_)accuspam(_dot_)com(_dot_)
accuman(_at_)accuspam(_dot_)com must accept/click/whatever to accept the 
response.

Until accuman(_at_)accuspam(_dot_)com accepts the response all messages from 
the list
must be queued (or sent a transient error) until the response expires of is
accepted.

Once accuman(_at_)accuspam(_dot_)com accepts the response the message is 
delivered.

The list is white listed and all messages sent from the list that were
queued while waiting for accuman(_at_)accuspam(_dot_)com to accept the response 
will be
delivered.



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-spf-discuss(_at_)v2(_dot_)listbox(_dot_)com
[mailto:owner-spf-discuss(_at_)v2(_dot_)listbox(_dot_)com] On Behalf Of AccuSpam
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 8:17 PM
To: spf-discuss(_at_)v2(_dot_)listbox(_dot_)com
Subject: Re: "RE: [spf-discuss] Which address of this list
shouldauto-responses go?"


Shelby >>> When did an auto-response become spam?

Mark >>When your "auto" "responds" to people who have not emailed you, for
one.

Shelby >I agree with that. Unfortunately you did email me, using the list
as
an open relay.

A) an Auto-response definitely becomes spam when it is sent to somebody
without their permission and when it is advertising something. Especially
when that person never mailed you before.

A.1) Mark did not send an email to you.


Yes he did, using the list as a relay, just as a spammer could join the list
and send spam to all of us using the list as relay.

Mark knows that when he sends to the list, he emails goes to all members.


An email list is not a relay (nor, should I add, is it an open relay).
Learn
the differences :-)


It is if it allows a spammer to join and use it to send spam.  The signup
for this list is unmoderated.



(With a relay, mark supplies YOUR email. With a list, YOU supply your
email.)


The list relays email.  Get dictionary.


He posted to an email list, to which you had subscribed.

While it may be your right to automatically respond to somebody when they
email you,


Agreed.



it is NOT your right to scrape email list archives and automatically send
advertisements
to all the participants,


And I did *NOT* do that.


and it is not your right to sign up a robot which
sits there and spams each participant as they post


That is why Guy helped us with a solution for AccuSpam that insures if I
forget to whitelist a list, the worst that will happen is only one person
who relies email to me via the list will get my auto-response (if that
person does not respond to the auto-response), then the list is blacklisted
for me only, until I whitelist the list in AccuSpam.

Stop fighting.  It is already solved.


I agree with that. Unfortunately you did email me, using the list as
an open relay.

It was not Mark that emailed you -- it was you that requested a copy of
Mark's email --


Or that Mark requested to send email to all members of the list.

Two ways of looking at it.  You have your perspective and other users have
their perspective.

Stop fighting.  It is already solved with idea from Guy.


then proceeded to automatically send him an autoresponder
containing an advertisement for your product. You did not first ask Mark's
permission to join the list and get copies of his emails, mark may not even
have known that you joined the list until your first post.


Mark knows this risk when he joins a mailing list.

Stop fighting.  It is already solved with idea from Guy.


Lets say you had joined the list, and Mark didn't know it, and he posted,
and got an autoreply from you which advertised your product, would you say
then that you had spammed Mark?


If Mark emails me, LEGALLY I can send any kind of reply I want.  I already
said I want to cooperate with mailing lists, so Stop fighting.  It is
already solved with idea from Guy.


(I'll agree that your intent probably was not to spam everybody, but we're
talking about whether or not you spammed, we're not debating your intent.)

Spam in my definition is unsolicited BULK email.  Unsolicited email is
impossible to define because definition thus changes with each person.  I
could say any email you send me spam if you use "Unsolicited email" without
the BULK qualification.  Luckily most people agree that getting rid of
"unsolicited BULK email" would end spam. You may not agree.


But look, it's not so bad. Lots of people spam list members intentionally,
and some even spam lists intentionally.
It's okay to say "Sorry about the spam, it was accidental.."


I think the better term for what you are describing is "trolling" or posting
against the charter.

I'm a bit surprised at your unwillingness to admit that it was spam -- I

Because I prefer to use definitions that have meaning.

can't imagine anybody but a spammer making such an argument,
but since you're in the business of fighting spam, you're certainly not a
spammer.

I am in the business of fighting "unsolicited BULK email" which is what I
define as spam.

I am *NOT* in business of determining what is GOOD and what is BAD content.

Make that very clear because that is very important point, both LEGALLY and
PHILOSOPHICALLY.

It is why I am against Bayesian (besides that it is very easy to defeat).

Thanks,
Shelby

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