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RE: Apply-templates - how to omit top level element tags?

2005-09-09 14:19:18
XSL is fragile because you can break things by messing around?
That's pretty much true of any complex system.  You messed around with a
stylesheet, did some things you didn't understand, and you got results
you didn't understand.  I'm at a complete loss what system wouldn't be
fragile in your hands with this attitude.

Some development systems are by design more resilient to change than
others. For example, procedural languages that are type safe with
variable scoping can be used to develop more robust complex systems than
those that do not support typing or that only support global variables.
Would you not agree with that?

My comments, admittedly without suggesting an alternative, were simply
saying that XSL is more like a language that is not type safe (fyi, 1.0
isn't) and that supports the equivalent of global variables in its push
model which are inherently fragile.

What I was implying while venting, but that I should have been explicit
about, was that I think the designers of XSL should really make it so
you can write more robust systems in XSL w/o requiring the use of other
languages to enforce robustness.  

I have studied and used a lot of languages over my 20 years in
computing, some only capable of building fragile systems if complex, and
some capable of building robust systems if complex. For example,
vbscript, visual basic 6, and vb.net are on a continuum of fragile to
robust. dBase II was fragile, Clipper 5 was robust.  Unfortunately, XSL
is currently in the fragile category. 

I'm hoping the tone of this email isn't too negative.  If you decide
that you do want to use XSLT and you run into more problems, I hope you
will return to the list.  Really :).  On the other hand though, it
sounds like you really don't like it.  I can't imagine why you'd want to
stick with it then.

Thanks for clarifying, it did feel negative earlier. :)  It's not that I
don't like XSLT, it's I want to see if get better. I have found over the
years I have a unique gifts (actually it's a curse); I can almost always
find areas where systems can be improved when many others think
everything is fine. 

Over the years, areas where I felt things could improve have natually
evolved to incorporate some of those improvements, so my experience
tells me I have a pretty good eye for that kind of thing.  For example,
I was awarded "the most outstanding beta tester" for Clipper 5 because I
found three times the issues that others found, many of which were
design issues. Unfortunately, it usually leaves me "wanting" in whatever
tool I use.  

So, please don't take my comments about XSLT as knocking it so much as
me pleading to the powers that be to see it improved in those areas.

-Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Gorman [mailto:jonathan(_dot_)gorman(_at_)gmail(_dot_)com] 
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:14 PM
To: xsl-list(_at_)lists(_dot_)mulberrytech(_dot_)com
Subject: Re: [xsl] Apply-templates - how to omit top level element tags?

Because I didn't know I had.  Again, demonstrating the fragility of 
XSL

Errr.  Ok.  I've been ignoring that part of the thread because to tell
the honest truth I don't see much point in what seems like a endless
argument.  But this statement is so outlandish I have to make a comment.
XSL is fragile because you can break things by messing around?  That's
pretty much true of any complex system.  You messed around with a
stylesheet, did some things you didn't understand, and you got results
you didn't understand.  I'm at a complete loss what system wouldn't be
fragile in your hands with this attitude.

In any case, best of luck.  I've been playing with XSLT mainly because
of my interest in systems for publishing of documents.  I've had systems
when I started out that sound a lot like yours, and they were nightmares
to maintain and work with.  But I've already said as much.

If you truly believe XSLT is so fragile, perhaps you would be better of
researching XPath based apis and libraries, XQuery, or any similar
system.  I'm sure they are out there, and those would allow you to use
the pull model without having to worry about templates.

I'm hoping the tone of this email isn't too negative.  If you decide
that you do want to use XSLT and you run into more problems, I hope you
will return to the list.  Really :).  On the other hand though, it
sounds like you really don't like it.  I can't imagine why you'd want to
stick with it then.



Jon Gorman

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