ietf-mxcomp
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Re: Working toward unity on XML

2004-06-16 04:53:01

In <11604246(_dot_)1087337651(_at_)[10(_dot_)12(_dot_)1(_dot_)26]> Greg Connor 
<gconnor(_at_)nekodojo(_dot_)org> writes:

gconnor: I think the XML issue is a very small part of the important work
we are doing within MARID. It's an implementation detail. We have made a
lot of progress in terms of coming together on identities and features.
let's not forget that. I know the XML issue pushes a lot of people's hot
buttons. I don't want this issue, which I consider "not really central to
the problem we are trying to solve" to tear the group apart

This comment got a lot of support on the Jabber session.


I'm going to this message reply out-of-order

I would prefer not to see replies to this post where people tear it up
and match one or two sentences of mine with some quick comeback of
theirs. That's a great style for arguing, but I think the time for
arguing is past. Most people who care about the issue have made most
of the intelligent arguments they are going to make.

What I would really prefer to see is a few paragraphs that say:
  1. What position you support

For better or worse, I think that position 2 is the only option that
makes sense.

  2. What other fallback or compromise positions you can live with, and

Position 4

  3. How strongly you feel about one or the other.

I, personally, don't feel that strongly against XML, but I do think
things should be as simple as possible (but no simpler) and my
position reflects what I sense from the people on SPF-discuss that are
not involved in MARID.



Ok, now that I've answered the questions the way Greg asked for, I
have a few more comments.


I think it is critical to keep in mind that there are no protocol
police.  In effect, there are several groups of people who have
effective veto power over any of our choices.  If domain owners don't
like something, they won't publish records.  If mail admins don't like
something they won't check records.  If MTA authors don't like
something, they won't give mail admins a choice.  If the IESG doesn't
like something, they won't give us an RFC.



Position 1. In favor of XML:

Caller-ID (XML) has not had a huge publication rate.  This *may* be a
case of domain owners vetoing XML, but there are many other possibilities.

Position 2. Opposed to XML:

SPF-classic (SPF syntax) has had a far larger publication rate.  This
tells me that domain owners aren't vetoing SPF syntax.

Position 3. Implement both, let domain owners decide:

Most domain owners who have published Caller-ID have also publish
SPF-classic.   There really isn't much to stop people from publishing
both. 

Position 4. Leave it up to the MTA:

Here is the crux of the problem.  It is generally mail admins that are
the most vocal against XML, with a fair number of DNS folks and MTA
patch authors thrown in.  Again, there really isn't much to stop mail
admins from checking just one.


So, even if we officially say in the RFC that our is position 3), mail
admins have veto power and will convert the situation into position 4)
anyway.  I don't particularly like position 4), but in reality, I
don't think position 3) is an option on anything other than paper.


So, when you realize that position 3) is really position 4), you
accept that domain owners aren't vetoing position 2, and combined with
the KISS principle, I think that position 2) is the only one that
makes sense.


Ok, let me repeat Greg's opening comment, it is worth a re-read:

gconnor: I think the XML issue is a very small part of the important work
we are doing within MARID. It's an implementation detail. We have made a
lot of progress in terms of coming together on identities and features.
let's not forget that. I know the XML issue pushes a lot of people's hot
buttons. I don't want this issue, which I consider "not really central to
the problem we are trying to solve" to tear the group apart

The XML issue is not just tearing this group apart, it threatens the
adoption by mail admins of any RFC that uses XML.  I'm not going to
claim that the opposition of XML by mail admins is always rational,
but we must acknowledge and deal with this situation anyway.


-wayne