ietf-smime
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RE: S/MIME v3.2 IDs key size text

2008-05-06 10:23:00

Tony,

Inline...

spt

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime(_at_)mail(_dot_)imc(_dot_)org 
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime(_at_)mail(_dot_)imc(_dot_)org] On Behalf Of Tony Capel
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:34 PM
To: 'Turner, Sean P.'; 'Paul Hoffman'; ietf-smime(_at_)imc(_dot_)org
Subject: RE: S/MIME v3.2 IDs key size text


Sean:

Agreed, the text in 3850bis and 3851bis needs to align.  I 
have no problems with support for smaller key sizes.

You got it.  I was just trying to say we need to keep the two algined.

I expect constraints on key size to be implemented by the 
certificate issuer anyway.  If you get a 512 key in a cert you 
trust you must be able to use it, no?  

Originally, I thought the answer really was no, but I think for interop with
v3 and v3.1 we need to say yes. If you get a 512 key in a cert from a source
you trust, then you can decide to not use it but it's not because you don't
trust the source it's because of some other reason. I can see where maybe
short lived certs are used because the info gets stale quickly, they need to
sign/verify really quickly, etc. I am a little concerned about the FIP-140
issue though.

Just a thought ... since we've now got a way to indicate + and - with
requirements should we apply it the key sizes in 3850bis?  That way people
will have a hint that in the next update the shorter keys will likely become
not so welcome and large keys more so? 

   0 < key size < 511  : MUST NOT
 512 < key size < 1023 : SHOULD-
1024 < key size < 2048 : MUST
2049 < key size < 4096 : MAY

Tony

| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-ietf-smime(_at_)mail(_dot_)imc(_dot_)org
| [mailto:owner-ietf-smime(_at_)mail(_dot_)imc(_dot_)org] On Behalf Of Turner, 
Sean P.
| Sent: May 5, 2008 4:58 PM
| To: 'Tony Capel'; 'Paul Hoffman'; ietf-smime(_at_)imc(_dot_)org
| Subject: RE: S/MIME v3.2 IDs key size text
| 
| 
| 
| Tony,
| 
| There was a comment from Paul against the text you cite from 
3850bis. 
| He objected to moving the lower bounds from 512 to 1024. I 
figured I'd 
| post both -02 drafts once we knocked this issue out.
| 
| spt
| 
| >-----Original Message-----
| >From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel(_at_)comgate(_dot_)com]
| >Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 4:09 PM
| >To: 'Paul Hoffman'; 'Turner, Sean P.'; ietf-smime(_at_)imc(_dot_)org
| >Subject: RE: S/MIME v3.2 IDs key size text
| >
| >All:
| >
| >I agree that deleting " namely 1024 bits" from the first 
sentence of 
| >the proposed security considerations section paragraph is 
good.  The 
| >second "1024"
| >in the proposed paragraph is not a problem for me since it is not 
| >"normative".
| >
| >With respect to section 4.1 (Key Pair Generation).  Is it 
intended to 
| >change the title of this section?  The second paragraph of the 
| >current text in 3851bis-01.txt begins "If an S/MIME agent needs to 
| >generate ...".  So if the S/MIME agent does NOT need to 
generate keys 
| >(and this is typically the case, most enrollment & key 
generation are 
| >done externally to messaging clients) the balance of this paragraph 
| >(which mentions the key sizes) is not normative (as 
currently drafted
| >- its quite possible that the last sentence of this 
paragraph should 
| >have been in a separate paragraph).  Key generation 
requirements are 
| >normally (hopefully!) cited in the corresponding CP, where things 
| >such as required key sizes, where they are generated (locally or at 
| >the CA), FIPS-140 Level, etc. should be (!!) explicitly 
identified.  
| >Maybe the second paragraph of
| >4.1 could be replaced with a simple statement:
| >
| >"If an S/MIME agent needs to generate one or more key pairs, each 
| >SHOULD be generated according to the corresponding certificate 
| >policy, refer for example to [RFC3647]."
| >
| >The proposed text, and the discussion so far, is really speaking 
| >about "what range of RSA key sizes" needs to be supported.  We are 
| >NOT providing security advice, we are just trying to ensure 
that most 
| >smime v3.2 implementations will interwork in the typical 
environments 
| >expected "in the wild"
| >(and special environments will be understood by purchasers 
anyway, so 
| >we likely need not worry about high security applications - 
only the 
| >general "public"
| >environments). 
| >
| >A similar issue is already addressed in CERT v3.2 ( 
| >draft-ietf-smime-3850bis-01.txt ) in Section 4.3 for certificate  
| >validation.
| >We might consider copying the last sentence of CERT v3.2 Sec
| >4.3 to the end of sections 2.2 and 2.3 (just before the Notes):
| >
| >   "Key sizes from 1024 bits to 2048 bits MUST be supported."
| >
| >This would also have the advantage of aligning CERT and MSG.
| >
| >Tony
| >
| >
| >| -----Original Message-----
| >| From: owner-ietf-smime(_at_)mail(_dot_)imc(_dot_)org 
| >| [mailto:owner-ietf-smime(_at_)mail(_dot_)imc(_dot_)org] On Behalf Of Paul 
Hoffman
| >| Sent: May 3, 2008 10:08 PM
| >| To: Turner, Sean P.; ietf-smime(_at_)imc(_dot_)org
| >| Subject: RE: S/MIME v3.2 IDs key size text
| >| 
| >| 
| >| 
| >| At 8:51 PM -0400 5/3/08, Turner, Sean P. wrote:
| >| >I think if we struck ", namely 1024 bits" from the text in
| >| the security
| >| >considerations that it's still a true statement and we
| >won't have to
| >| >change it every time we update the spec.
| >| 
| >| I'm OK with that, but I also feel that if we're updating
| the minimum
| >| mandatory signing length, it is trivial to update the Security 
| >| Considerations as well.
| >| 
| >
|