The problem James is that this is just not the case. What is the case is
that each WG Chair gets to decide what concensus is for their WG and that
is
wrong.
I dont see whats wrong with each wg chairs determine what is the consensus.
(Note: I use the word "determine" not "decide"). In fact, that is part of
the job description for a wg chair.
The problem with the operations is that the rules change form group
to group and this has serious technical and financial implications for
anyone trying to mount a standards effort as part of a product release or
market development activity.
Product release and market development activity are out-of-scope for IETF.
If the working group considered them as a factor, then it is up to the
*group* to decide. The chairs dont play a role here other then declaring
what the rough consensus is, regardless what that decision is.
I have a feeling you should be looking at some other industry consortium
instead.
-James Seng
Todd
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Seng" <jseng(_at_)pobox(_dot_)org(_dot_)sg>
To: "todd glassey" <todd(_dot_)glassey(_at_)worldnet(_dot_)att(_dot_)net>;
"Harald Tveit
Alvestrand" <harald(_at_)alvestrand(_dot_)no>
Cc: <ietf(_at_)IETF(_dot_)ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: How many standards or protocols...
then who makes that decision? You or the WG Chairs? The AD's???
The IETF as a community, depending on rough consensus. If the rough
consensus is that there will be multiple protocols, then then there will
be.
If not, then not.
Rough also means not everyone will agree with the decision.
But why is the question? If there are people actively working on the
effort
and they want to continue, why is the management making any decisions
as
to
which protocols to push?
There must be sufficient support for the effort and that must be rough
consensus. People activiely (solo or team) working is not enough.
The cost of persuits is not borne by the IETF though so what's the
point?
Why should the WG constrain any effort over another? This is a
curiosity
of
mine, that being why a WG should have squat to say at the management
level
about the content of its protocols, only whether they are completed
and
elevated to the next level or not. This is the core flaw in the IETF's
process. The WG Chairs need an arms length from each of the protocol
efforts
and to act as mentors for all the projects that have committed
participants.
They are not the ones to decide what the WG will and will not focus
on,
its
membership is.
In an ideal situation, the wg chairs would make decision based on what
he
determined as a rough consensus of the working group. It is typical that
a
handful of people will disagreed with the decision anyway but a loud
voice
doesn't mean you'll get your way.
But if there are sufficient people who disagreed with the decision of
the
chairs, then the chairs have failed to determine the rough consensus.
That
decision will be overturned.
It does not matter what the contributions the working group chairs made,
what protocol they supports, what they thinks or what they eat last week
*as
long* as the final decision represent a rough consensus of the group.
If you think the wg chairs should be arms length and "mentoring role",
you
should be looking elsewhere, not IETF.
As to the actual content and form of the protocols themselves, the
content
and form is up to the contributors and those actively involved in the
vetting process. So I would like to pose the question "why then should
any
WG Management have anything to say about which protocols are done in
their
groups?".
Why not? Does been a wg chairs means he/she have to stop been a
contributor?
Several have said to me that they need this ability to drive focus
into
the
group. The problem is that there is no formal definition as to what
that
focus is.
Check your working group charter.
Also it needs to be stated that WG participants are not labor
sources for the WG Chair to allocate, they are participants and are
all
equal before the IESG - or should be at least.
I think that is why the wg chairs are paid big bucks by the IETF ;-)
Big bucks as in a *BIG* zero with all-expenses-on-your-own deal.
I'd like to hear the IETF community's input on the topic.
Harald
Me too!.
I think you should try to keep your disagree with the chairs within your
own
working group. Also look into RFC2026 on the appealing process.
-James Seng