RE: Email account utilization warning. (Final)

I would agree.  Perhaps an inquiry as to the motives behind this continual
attack that the IETF has endured would help mitigate the situation.


On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Jasen Strutt wrote:

"Dean Anderson"
Would you give it a rest already? Take your issue(s) up with the appropriate
person(s) in a separate, mutually exclusive thread, and stop blasting the
IETF list.

I'm sure you'll be unable to contain yourself and blast yet, another message
out, about how everyone else is wrong, and you have the ideas which lead us
to the wonderland of end all. Therein lies the problem.

Your continued replies are a surefire way to test my "poignant 'stuff' from
"Dean Anderson" to ignore" ...."rule".

Cheers-
Jasen

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org 
[mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org] On Behalf Of Dean
Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 10:34 AM
To: Mark Durham
Cc: Michel Py; ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org; jstrutt(_at_)pcpotato(_dot_)com
Subject: Re: Email account utilization warning.

Mark,

To fool people, the "phish" has to be plausible.  In this case, people
have come to expect capricious behavior from the IETF and so the
"phishing" claim of turning off email capriciously isn't out of the realm
of the expected behavior.  People saw the IETF do it before, and expect it
might might happen again.

"Dean Anderson" is not the topic: The IETF principles are the topic;  The
IETF rules are the topic; The misbehavior by people including the IETF
leadership is the topic.  Those who don't want to address the problems try
to portray this as about Dean Anderson, or about Dan Bernstein, or about
whoever else is being abused at the moment.  It's not about Dean Anderson;
It's not about Dan Bernstein; Its not those other innocent people defamed
and disparaged by a select few abusers.  Its about abusive behavior by a
select group, and the willfull, repeated, and perfidious failure of the
leadership to address the abuse, and the participation by the leadership
in the abuse.

It should not be too much to ask that the IETF Leadership follow the IETF
rules and the IETF principles.  Is that too much to ask?  When the
leadership acts capriciously, frivolously, perfidiously and acts contrary
to the rules and principles of the IETF, this behavior is observed by
others.  These things don't happen in a vacuum.  The complaints of Dean
Anderson, or Dan Bernstein, or of anyone else do not bring dishonor to the
IETF. Only the behavior by the leadership brings disrespect and dishonor
to the IETF.  And we see the effects of that: People come to expect
capricious behavior from the IETF and so the "phishing" premise isn't out
of the realm of the expected behavior.  People saw the IETF do it before,
and expect it might might happen again.  Solve the problem: Obey the IETF
principles and rules. Then such "phishes" will be out of character, and
people would be more suspicious of such a "phish".

As I said offlist to Mark Smith:

  From: Dean Anderson <dean(_at_)av8(_dot_)com>
  To: Mark Smith 
<ietf(_at_)130c04165a5b40404e4440445758487a(_dot_)nosense(_dot_)org>
  Subject: Re: Email account utilization warning.

  Because I have respect for the IETF, and its principles. It is the IETF
  leadership that is disgraceful.

  But it has been the desire of the leadership to run the IETF like a
  private club, and many people would be (and have been) driven off by
  their behavior. Someone, sometime has to stand up to them.

                --Dean

  On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Mark Smith wrote:

  > If you have such low respect for the IETF, why don't you just remove
  > yourself from all associated IETF mailing lists, and stop
  > "contributing" too them?

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Mark Durham wrote:

Could we try to keep our narcissistic eye on the ball here?

I realize that the only thing on this list that matters to you is you,
and normally I do what I imagine most of the list is doing: I suffer
your rants in silence. But recognizing this stuff is actually important,
and if there are people on the IETF list who don't, that's a situation
that cries out for attention. Please, for once, let's assume that you
are *not* the topic, and stay on whatever the topic actually is. You can
trot out your personal demons (or daemons, for that matter) under some
other subject line ... and, by all evidence, you certainly will. In the
meantime, let's not treat every message on this list as your personal
song cue.

Is this really too much to ask?



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