This doesn't come close to representing what has transpired.
Try this on for size, in the same childish genre as the other:
There are two clubs. The first club is like a gang of kids. Not very formal.
Just a group, really. Kind of a gang. Not terribly educated, but tight. The
second club is more adult-like. Velvet smoking jackets: "How is Sir today?",
"How is Madam today?". "How does the gentleman vote on the issue of
draft-widget-factorizing?"
There are also two sets of rules. The grownup rules, and the club rules.
Actually, there are three sets because there are two clubs, but we can ignore
this.
At the first club, there were a bunch of bullies. The person didn't know right
away that they were bullies [well actually, he did know they were bullies from
many years before, but had forgotten that--not a grudgeholder himself]. The
bullies said they could do whatever they wanted and no rules applied to them.
This person merely told them at the that they were wrong: there were rules that
applied to them. He quoted the rules. The bullies said that they were bullies,
and that no one would go against them. The bullies shake down the other kids
for their lunch money, by saying they sell vinegar. They also put up signs
saying "no vinegar sales", while helping the real vinegar vendors hide from the
vinegar police. Of course, they don't help the vinegar vendors for free: They
charge for list-washing. They go around boasting a lot about looking for
grownups, but when someone stands up to them, the first thing they say is that
if they go to the grownups, they'll be blocked forever.
Two of the members of the first club repeatedly abused the person, punching and
hitting. So the person invoked the grownup rules. So the grownups came, and
found the person following the rules, and that other the two members were
breaking the rules. One of the bad kids had to be sent home by his boss, because
even after he was told to stop, he continued in spite of what his employer said
to do. This made the bad kid really angry. Six years later, he's still mad. The
other bullies weren't happy either. You can't be a bully if you let someone get
away with going against a bully. So the first club said he couldn't be a member
anymore, out of spite. They don't like people who invoke the grownup rules or go
against the bullies. And about the one person who really pissed them off, they
he stole IP addresses. The IP address claim is not credible because the
companies to which the IP addresses belong to still exist and function. But the
spite of bullies is not to be underestimated.
So later, at a posher, sort-of-grownup club, the same group of bullies is
looking for revenge on the person who got their two bully-friends into trouble
by having grownup rules enforced on them. They engage in name-calling, personal
attacks, and generally school-yard behavior. This behavior is largely ignored by
the person, save to occasionally register a complaint with the club leaders
about the behavior. But the club leaders don't dare go against the bullies.
Indeed, some of the bullies have become club leaders. One of those bullies
changes his official club email address to say to any customers of the one
person, that his IP addresses are stolen.
Once again, the person has caught the bullies cheating, breaking the rules, and
doing all sorts of reprehensible things. Bullies will be bullies. They try to
intimidate and threaten the person. They threaten anyone who speaks up for the
person. So the bullies say "We can't stand this person anymore. We want him
out." One bully announces publicly that hs is searching for ways to get rid of
the person according to the club rules. One might guess that they demanded
removal and were turned down on account of the rules. So the bullies have
fabricated charges against the person to have him removed from the sort-of-grown
up club. Ironically, the bullies use complaints about the bullies, charging
those complaints are attacks on bullies. Poor bullies.
But, unlike the first club, this second club has some grownup rules. It seems
unlikely that the club can do this act, and still obey the grownup rules. There
are consequences for violating the grownup rules.
Once again, the bullies pretend that there are no rules to govern their
behavior. But if anything is ever true, this is: The grownups never side with
bullies. This grownup club has a requirement to act in the interest of the
public, and to be fair, open, and inclusive. Fairness requires some sort of
fair prosecution devoid of conflict of interest, and a fair opportunity of
defense against the charges. Moreover, all this has to be in the public
interest, not in the interest of a group of bullies.
--Dean
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 bill(_at_)strahm(_dot_)net wrote:
Lets look at this as what it may appear to be. No references to anyone
living or deceased is intended in the following story.
Disclaimer - I have been personally named by Mr. Anderson - so take what I
say with a healthy grain of salt.
Lets say you want to put together a club - as long as you play by the
rules of the club you are welcome to come into the clubhouse and play with
its toys, work on the clubhouse, sit down and talk with its members. The
club lets anyone who wants to join come into the clubhouse without any
screening process at all.
Now you let in a person who insists on sitting on the floor and trying to
trip everyone who attempts to enter, either new members or old members.
Old members know about all of the fun games inside so attempt to push
through to get in. New members aren't quite so sure, and may decide to
turn around and either not play at the club, or go to another clubhouse
down the street and start helping them build their clubhouse (not that our
club has any rules about belonging to more than one club mind you)
Your job as the president of the club is to welcome everyone in, including
the person sitting in the door, so you ask her to move inside and start
playing with the toys. She comes in for a bit, takes away a few toys that
people are playing with, then goes back to sitting in the doorway. You
ask a few more times, and can't get her to quit sitting in the doorway.
Now it is time to bring in the Sergeant of Arms. They basically go
through the clubhouse and ask if anyone has anything to say about asking
this person to leave the club so everyone else can enjoy it. After a
period of time (after all, some people think EVERYONE shoudld play with
the toys, and most of the members are concerned because it is VERY
important to allow anyone to come in and play - because that is the most
fun) the hard descision is made to exclude someone from the club.
There is no prosecution, no defense - it is a club after all, we all know
what has been going on. A few of us were tripped up a couple of times
walking in.
That said IETF work is more important than a clubhouse with some good toys
inside it. But it is a place of work, not a place to be throwing around
threats of lawsuits, and demanding that everyone else gets kicked out.
Bill
Mr. Scott,
IANAL. But I know when you hurt someone with others, all have to pay.
2005/10/17, Scott W Brim <swb(_at_)employees(_dot_)org>:
OK, this is getting silly. Have you ever been to an IETF meeting?
You should understand the IETF culture before presuming to advise
governments. The IETF is not a puppet of any government, and even if
it were, that has nothing to do with RFC3683.
I do not understand why you attack me?
I advise Governments on what IETF says.
Not on what the IETF does?
But what IETF does is subject to laws.
And the IETF disclaimer has no value in this case.
The Last Call was reissued precisely to support the rights of the
"accused" (your word). Because it was issued on the wrong list, some
people might not have seen it. It was given *more* exposure time, not
less, in order to be *more* fair, not less. Your implications that
the "rulers" and their lackeys are gaming the system to take away
rights is completely absurd.
"accused" is not my word.
I do not understand what you can name "more fair".
Mr. Dean can claim it was less. And win.
Things are fair or not.
Mr. Dean can claim it is messy and win.
I do not understand what are the rulers and the lackeys?
I am not interested in dicussing RFC that way.
Eduardo Mendez
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