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Re: Response to the Appeal by [...]

2006-07-20 11:30:02

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pete Resnick" <presnick(_at_)qualcomm(_dot_)com>
To: "Thomas Narten" <narten(_at_)us(_dot_)ibm(_dot_)com>; "Sam Hartman" 
<hartmans(_at_)mit(_dot_)edu>
Cc: "Frank Ellermann" <nobody(_at_)xyzzy(_dot_)claranet(_dot_)de>; 
<ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: Response to the Appeal by [...]


On 7/19/06 at 9:02 AM -0400, Thomas Narten wrote:

...it makes no sense to appeal to ISOC that "the process itself was
unfair and has failed to produce a proper result", if there wasn't
first an appeal on actual substance that didn't result in the
appropriate outcome.

But, technically, I would not expect the appeal to the IESG/IAB and
the one to the ISOC to be exactly the same. In the former case, the
appeal is presumably on actual decisions and actions made in WGs, by
the IESG, etc. In the latter case, the argument is much more about
the process itself (and how it failed to "protect the rights of all
parties in a fair and open Internet Standards Process" as indicated
in 2026) and is less focussed on the details that led to the
original appeal.

On this we might agree (though I think this is something different
than what Brian and Sam are saying): You can read "Further
recourse..." to mean that you can't appeal a process on the grounds
of fairness unless you have been affected by that process. But I
think we also agree that you don't bring the question of fairness of
the process to IESG/IAB, but straight to ISOC: The appeal you bring
to the IESG/IAB is different from the one you bring to ISOC.

That requires a policy and approval by the ISOC - this is one of the onerous
failings of the ISOC as well.... that it let the IETF define its own
contractual processes and their recourse models.

T

On 7/20/06 at 11:12 AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:

Having read 6.5 in its entirety multiple times, I agree with Brian's
reading not yours.

OK, for the sake of argument let's assume that we read it like you
and Brian. Let's ask some questions: If I think that the way
technical choices are made in a WG is unfair, do I bring that to the
WG chair to adjudicate first? That's what I would do under 6.5.1. Or,
since it is a procedural question, do I bring it straight to the IESG
chair as 6.5.2 requires me to do? Do WG process questions (as defined
in 6.5.1) go to the IESG chair (as defined in 6.5.2)?

I can't figure out how to read the the first paragraph of 6.5.1
(especially the last sentence) and the first paragraph of 6.5.2 and
come up with an explanation where the procedures for 6.5.1, 6.5.2 and
6.5.3 are tied to each other. They are independently run processes.
And nowhere in the process of 6.5.3 is there mention of bringing it
to the IESG or IAB.

Brian's reading is also preferable because in cases where the
unfairness of procedures is sufficiently blatent, the ISOC BOT need
not get involved.

But it also means that if a particular IESG decides that a BCP
procedure (something that has ostensibly achieved rough consensus) is
unfair, they can simply say, "This is unfair, so we're not following
it" without any community review. That's just nuts. Neither the IESG
nor the IAB should be in the business of reviewing whether an extant
BCP procedure is fair. (Of course, before the BCP is published, those
considerations should occur. But doing so afterwards invites all
sorts of nonsense.)

Finally, Brian's reading means that the ISOC BOT will have both the
IAB and the IESG's opinions on why the procedures are in fact fair.
I think that is useful input for their process.

"The Trustees shall review the situation in a manner of its own
choosing". They can ask for the opinions of anyone they choose.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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