The problem here is that the Behave group seems to have people who are making
IETF wide policy. So that is why opponents of the behave position think that
the appropriate forum is the IETF list.
Behave can decide not to do a NAT66.
But what they cannot do is to decide that NAT66 should be prohibited.
The lack of a consensus that NAT66 is needed does not automatically mean that
it does not happen. On the contrary, behave was founded after years of
ideological opposition to NAT led to botched implementations. Then we had a
small clique decide that they were going to unilaterally pohibit NAT46 because
they could
And then a lot of folk got rather angry and do not want the issue swept under
the carpet again just because some folk are tired of the discussion.
________________________________
From: ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org on behalf of Magnus Westerlund
Sent: Wed 11/26/2008 10:20 AM
To: peter(_at_)peter-dambier(_dot_)de
Cc: 'IETF Discussion'
Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Lack of need for 66nat : Long term impact to
applicationdevelopers
Please,
any input into this debate shall go to the behave list. People
interested in this topic please subscribe to Behave.
Regards
Magnus
Peter Dambier skrev:
Keith Moore wrote:
absolutely it's too onerous. why in the world should an application's
deployability depend on the existence of a server that lives in global
address space -- or for that matter, on a bank of servers that exist to
do nothing but forward traffic? isn't that what the network is supposed
to do?
That is what bothers me too. sip is mostly peer to peer, so for most
of your communication (in megabytes) no server in a rack needed.
Email, with fixed IPv6 addresses will become peer to peer again too.
html? html is not much traffic. Many people do html hehind their NAT44
boxes today.
There is still a lot to be done for zeroconf, so DNS still is ok
with a server in a rack.
Oh, I forgot. For DNS you are still dependent on IPv4.
All the enthusiasts with their linux and freebsd boxes using ISATAP
to communicate don't see a need for NAT66. It is the big guys with
big windows servers who really need NAT66 to hide their fragile
machines from the bad wild internet.
I am one of those poor guys who has never been told what good NAT66
can do for him. I am still troubled by NAT44 preventing me from
connecting with my ISATAP interface.
I am running more than one computer. That is why I am imprisoned
behind my NAT44 and I am afraid NAT66 will be yet another prison.
I have seen with tunneling (slow as molasses) I get only a single /128.
So I guess a bilingual router will sit on both his single IPv4 and
another single IPv6 and keep all the traffic for himself letting
me do the guesswork how to drill the holes I need to connect to
the internet.
I see with IPv6 I do have to compete with my fridge and the
central heating drilling holes to talk to the butcher, the baker
and the oil-tanker. None of them is living in a rack in a colocation.
They all have to drill holes into their NAT66 to talk to my home.
There is a hole industry living from selling me super excluse
and expensive drilling machinery, I would not need if there was
not a NAT66 in the first place.
I know NAT44 is like my front door and keeps the bad internet out.
But it is not NAT44, it is the firewall who keeps them out.
Only a vague feeling for symmetry keeps telling me I should have
a NAT66.
Math is telling me that need not be true. IPv4 brought us from
point to point clothes line to 2-dimensional space spanning
continents. IPv6 will bring us 3-dimensional space spanning
the globe and DNT will bring us even further. I do not know if
there is such a thing as NAT66 existing.
In 2-D space we do have trigons, squares, pentagons, hexagon...
In 3-D space live stops with things built from pentagons.
The guys with their big windows servers behind NAT44 are living
in a 2-D world, dreaming their 2-D dreams bout selling us
3-D NAT66 boxes without even knowing the math.
Kind regards
Peter
--
Magnus Westerlund
IETF Transport Area Director & TSVWG Chair
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