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RE: [BEHAVE] Lack of need for 66nat : Long term impact to applicationdevelopers

2008-11-26 12:15:27
Eric, 
 
The problem here is that you assume that the IETF has decision power that can 
magic away NAT66. Clearly it did not for NAT44 and will not for NAT66.
 
So the real question for App designers is:
 
1) Should they design protocols that assume no NAT66
2) Should they regard the assumption that there is no NAT6 as a design fault 
that may lead to lack of interoperability.
 
The only way that the effort being expended to kill NAT66 makes any sense is if 
the idea is to allow this type of argument to be rulled out of scope as similar 
arguments were ruled out of scope when they were brought up in existing 
protocols that simply do not work properly because the design was intentionally 
made to be unfriendly to NAT.
 
If we recognize that there is no consensus that applications that are not 
NAT66-agile will work in future then we should agree that the reasonable 
default requirement for an apps WG should be that it should build a protocol 
that is NAT66 tolerant. But I suspect that there will be severe pushback 
against that.
 
 
Peter Dambier is right in this case,
 
I would NAT66 my network for the simple reason that very few endpoint devices 
actually tollerate a change in the IP address without at a minimum a service 
interruption. Since I cannot guarantee that my IPv6 address from my ISP will 
never change I am going to NAT66 my internal network for the sake of having 
static numbering inside the network.
 
The more infrequent you posit the need for renumbering is, the greater my 
reluctance to allowing it will become. If you have a network event that happens 
only once a year it is going to mean a very serious disruption when it happens. 
DHCP only solves some of the problems, I am still effectively forced to perform 
a reboot, I will lose connections and this will cost me real time and money to 
fix.
 
 

________________________________

From: ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org on behalf of Eric Klein
Sent: Mon 11/24/2008 5:56 AM
To: Fred Baker
Cc: IAB; behave(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org WG; IETF Discussion; 
alh-ietf(_at_)tndh(_dot_)net; IESG IESG
Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Lack of need for 66nat : Long term impact to 
applicationdevelopers




On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Fred Baker <fred(_at_)cisco(_dot_)com> wrote:



        On Nov 21, 2008, at 9:39 PM, Tony Hain wrote:
        
        

                The discussion today in Behave shows there is very strong 
peer-pressure group-think with no serious analysis of the long term 
implications about what is being discussed.
                


        Yes, there is a very clear anti-NAT religion that drives a lot of 
thought. It's not clear that any other opinion is tolerated. 
         

Fred,
 
I pesonally would be open to a real discussion about the needs and then about 
the solution. But for now NAT has taken on religious connotations with those 
who are for it being as single minded as those who are against it.
 
We need a team made up of both sides to sit down, spell out what are the 
functions of NAT (using v4 as a basis) and then to see if:
1. If they are still relevant (like number shortage from v4 is not the same 
issue under v6 for example)
2. Do they already exist in v6 without adding NAT
 
Then we need to check:
1. Is there is a solution by using NAT
2. Is there is a better solution than using NAT
 
Only then can we make a proper and informed decission on what is needed and 
what is unneeded legacy.
Eric
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