Re: New Non-WG Mailing List: NetSlices - Network Slicing

Hi Loa,

Updating the charter is easy, but I get the sense there is something deeper 
that hasn't yet come out yet. And I intentionally choose not to cut the 
discussion short and miss an important point that I'm not grasping that might 
inform me or the IESG on an underlying process fix for future work in the IETF.

Cheers
T.

On 17/01/2017, 1:44 PM, "Loa Andersson" <loa(_at_)pi(_dot_)nu> wrote:

    Terry and Adrian,
    
    Can't we simple update the mailing list charter as Terry explained he 
    see the purpose of the list, and then go on with the discussion.
    
    /Loa
    
    On 2017-01-17 11:33, Terry Manderson wrote:
    > Hi Adrian,
    >
    > Avoidance of discussion happens everywhere on many topics in the IETF, 
and as we know silence does not equal consensus. We also all know why that 
occurs. Having the list specifically for this topic is to ensure that sane 
discussion does happen, and happens in a location that easy for anyone (esp the 
IESG) to find at some point down the track when (invariably) an ask comes 
forward about a having BOF. So yes, the interested parties do need to 
self-organize to get that "agreed' definition.
    >
    > Please don't read any weight into the term "agreed IETF definition". This 
mailing list does not get to say this is THE definition for the IETF. the 
wording is to scopes the discussion such that the definition needs to be in 
scope for the IETF. Could it have been said better, yep. Mea culpa. (Although I 
really thought how the IETF forms consensus is well known. Will ensure to be 
far more explicit in future)
    >
    > Where it goes from here depends on what happens on the mailing list and 
that is simply no different to most of the other bodies of work that comes into 
the IETF.
    >
    > Cheers
    > Terry
    > (Dammit, the single malt is on the top shelf!)
    >
    > On 17/01/2017, 1:10 PM, "Adrian Farrel" 
<adrian(_at_)olddog(_dot_)co(_dot_)uk> wrote:
    >
    >     Hello Terry,
    >
    >     This all seems fine and dandy, but there is a disconnect between what 
you say there "discussing a proposed definition" and "presenting a better 
formed definition to the IETF" (admirable intentions for a mailing list), and 
"determining an agreed IETF definition" as indicated by some of the 
participants on the list as well as in the revised mailing list announcement.
    >
    >     I hope I am not needlessly picking at words, but it seems that this 
disconnect could be the source of some future uncomfortable moments.
    >
    >     As Lou mentions, the topic seems to have avoided discussion on the 
TEAS list where it was invited to take place. That need not be a bad thing if 
the proponents need to self-organise a bit. And I see no harm in providing an 
archived mailing list under IETF "note well" terms for that self-organisation 
to take place. It's just about setting expectations of where the results of the 
organisation need to be taken.
    >
    >     Cheers,
    >     Adrian
    >     (The benefits of a low bar include being able to reach your drink 
while in a sedentary position)
    >
    >     > I granted approval of this list, as a list, so that the definition 
of network slicing
    >     > could be discussed in an IETF context.
    >     >
    >     > Really, it boils down to the (on list) discussion of what is a 
proposed network
    >     > slicing definition that could see the IETF doing work on. So really 
about presenting
    >     > a better formed definition to the IETF, for the IETF to consider at 
some future
    >     > point in time. As we know with most "I have a problem that I think 
the IETF
    >     > should work on" proposals we tend to ask for the problem to be 
defined in a way
    >     > that does communicate the depth and breadth of the issue or the 
idea before a
    >     > BOF is considered. This is where I see network slicing now. Showing 
that this very
    >     > amorphous concept has the hope of some agreed shape and also that 
there are
    >     > sufficient bodies to form that shape, whatever it is.
    >     >
    >     > As a mailing list (and JUSTa mailing list!) the work for the 
interested parties on
    >     > that mailing list is to try to put words together that is actually 
meaningful in the
    >     > IETF context. To be brutally honest I have doubts that this is 
possible from what I
    >     > read to date but I do commit (as AD) to allowing discussion to 
occur as I'm neither
    >     > the magistrate of taste nor the gate of interest.
    >     >
    >     > Cheers
    >     > Terry
    >     >
    >     > On 14/01/2017, 3:37 AM, "ietf on behalf of Adrian Farrel" 
<ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
    >     > on behalf of adrian(_at_)olddog(_dot_)co(_dot_)uk> wrote:
    >     >
    >     >     Thanks Stewart and Alex.
    >     >
    >     >     > This list is intended for discussion of network slicing to 
determine
    >     >     > an agreed IETF definition of the term Network Slicing, 
problems and
    >     >     > gaps to be covered with an aim to facilitate interoperation 
across
    >     >     > different operator and vendor solutions. The list also 
determines (and
    >     >     > assimilates) which elements of the slicing problems are 
already
    >     >     > covered by existing IETF designs or work in progress.
    >     >
    >     >     It's good to discuss stuff.
    >     >
    >     >     How will agreement of "an IETF definition" be measured?
    >     >     Or maybe you mean to attempt to agree a definition among the 
people
    >     > subscribed to the list and propose that as a definition for use by 
the IETF?
    >     >     But still, who on the list will call consensus?
    >     >
    >     >     Why is this something to be petty about?
    >     >     Because I need to know whether this is a list I have to join 
and monitor in case I
    >     > don't agree the definition, or whether that definition will come up 
for IETF review
    >     > in the normal way.
    >     >
    >     >     Perhaps the AD who granted this list with this charter could 
speak up?
    >     >
    >     >     Adrian
    >     >
    >     >
    >
    >
    >
    
    -- 
    
    
    Loa Andersson                        email: 
loa(_at_)mail01(_dot_)huawei(_dot_)com
    Senior MPLS Expert                          loa(_at_)pi(_dot_)nu
    Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64

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