spf-discuss
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RE: That Forwarding Topic Again

2005-07-06 18:40:57
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-spf-discuss(_at_)v2(_dot_)listbox(_dot_)com
[mailto:owner-spf-discuss(_at_)v2(_dot_)listbox(_dot_)com]On Behalf Of Greg 
Connor
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 2:50 PM
To: spf-discuss(_at_)v2(_dot_)listbox(_dot_)com
Subject: [spf-discuss] That Forwarding Topic Again


Team-

Can we all agree to STOP with the "No, You're Wrong" style of
messages?  If
you can't take the time to try and understand and appreciate someone's
viewpoint, then JUST DON'T REPLY.

I would like to see some more messages that state your viewpoint
clearly in
two to four paragraphs.  I do not want to see any more messages
that repeat
exactly what you have said before.  I do not want to see any more
messages
that "take apart" someone else's post into three or more pieces.

It's a lot easier to take apart what someone else says and say
"No, You're
Wrong" than it is to write something concise and clear in your
own voice.  But
the room is too noisy for shouting matches right now.  Speak your mind
clearly, and show some respect for others by trying to understand
their point
of view.

This issue is not black and white.  Don't try to pretend it is.  Don't do
stupid reductions like "If what you're saying is true, then the
Pope must be
on fire!".  Don't do straw-man stuff like "That's the same as
saying the moon
is square, and it's clearly not."  Don't do ad-hominem stuff like "Only a
moron would believe that".

Or, as is often said on the Internet:  "So much heat! So little
light!"  In
other words, if you are not adding something new and interesting to the
debate, take a seat on the bench for now.


I think we can all agree on the following:
1. Forwarding is a current industry practice, whether right or wrong.
Forwarding services are not criminal enterprises.  They may be guilty of
reducing their costs by passing the bounces on to you, but that's not
currently illegal.

2. It's time for a change to current practice.  People will do
almost anything
to lose weight, except diet and exercise.  Well, the email situation has
gotten bad enough that it's time to question some assumptions.
Something that
was accepted as common practice may soon be unacceptable.
(Accept-then-bounce is a good example, it can now get you blocked)

3. SPF is a good idea, but "the forwarding problem" is a huge
stumbling block.
Labelling forwarders as forgers doesn't help solve the problem.  We need
clever solutions to the problem, not rhetoric.  We need hard work
done, not
fingerpointing.

4. SRS is not the only solution.  Several other solutions have
been proposed.
No one solution solves all cases, but perhaps we don't need to
solve all cases
ourselves, as long as we can show we are able to solve most cases
(currently
we can't, but we may be getting closer).

Now... would someone like to start the ball rolling by
disagreeing with me
POLITELY?!  Try using some "I think", "I feel" or "I believe" statements.

I am not naming any names or pointing any fingers here.  A number
of people
have posted entirely reasonable and respectful messages and then
turned around
a minute later and gone off on someone.  I'm not going to start
banning people
or anything, but I am pretty close to stopping the forwarding
thread entirely.
I would like everyone to use the next 24 hours to either post something
reasonable and respectful, or if you don't feel you can do that,
just stay off
the airwaves for now.

I'm sure it's different for everyone, but in MY experience, forwarding is
not a huge problem.  I've had no SPF related forwarding problems in my
personal and business use.

Since the volunteer group I'm part of took over handling submissions to the
SPF web site I've seen very few complaints that have turned out to be
related to forwarding.  I did a quick search and fewer than 10% even have
the word forward mentioned in any of the requests or related correspondence.

In terms of SPF related problems, what I've seen from the web site
submissions would indicate that providers publishing -all records without
consulting domain owners is a MUCH bigger problem than forwarding.

Sure, it's an issue, but it will get dealt with.  It just isn't much of an
issue for me, or it appears to me, a lot of people who aren't e-mail
professionals.

Quite some time ago, Meng mentioned that pobox.com was experimenting with
per user SPF policies.  I'd be curious to see how that worked out.  I'd also
be curious to see some code....

Scott K


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