Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful
1999-02-11 18:22:12
At 12:02 AM 2/12/99 +0000, D. J. Bernstein wrote:
on removing the tokenizer. Nobody else on DRUMS seems to remember ever
supporting Resnick's removal of the tokenizer.
Again, Dan, you are making a statement that goes beyond the facts. It's
curious how consistently you do that.
Only one person has made an explicit statement about their memory of the
precise details. (It wasn't me, because I'm not willing to go down that
rat-hole with you.) Yet you persist in making a positive claim of group
failed memories.
What IS a fact is that your recent efforts have received NOT ONE message of
support from anyone else. Since this has gone on for a some days already,
there should have been some other mail in support of your claims and none
has appeared.
This creates a prima facie case for declaring your objections to lack
working group support. Hence, it provides that much more basis for
terminating the endless delay the working group has suffered through and,
instead, for shipping its product.
If the documents are so horribly flawed, as you believe, there will be
clear evidence from the community.
How can _I_ prevent publication? I'm not in charge of the specs. I've
merely been pointing out problems.
A penalty for the IETF's approach to openness is that it must and does bend
over backwards to attend to all input. Many participants even feel
obligated to put up with all manner of personal crap, just so there is
sufficient technical due diligence.
My own, whimsical phrasing is that the IETF is quite good at putting up
with people who are obnoxious or ignorant... but not both. Only when a
person shows a very sustained pattern of being both are they (finally)
largely ignored.
Alas, you frequently provide legitimate input, however difficult it is to
handle the packaging it comes in. Most of us are obnoxious only part of
the time, or at least we are not obnoxious ALL of the time.
Only rarely do we experience someone who seems to lack any control at
all. (Hope springs eternal. About 25 years ago, the community experienced
its first email non-stop flamer, and he seemed unable to control it, but
things eventually got much better; it only took him about 18 years to calm
down. By contrast, some of us have always had SOME control, but never
quite graduate to developing ENOUGH...)
In any event, the group's desire to do good work obligates it to attend to
that input, in spite of the real and deep pain of dealing with that packaging.
But part of the social contract of participating in an effort like this is
a community desire to make forward progress, while giving credence to all
participants. This requires real and difficult compromise by ALL
participants, which often means losing particular battles that one or
another person feels is important.
In other words, the social contract is to choose the battles, balancing
various factors. Someone who only lobbies for their own point of view and
who shows no willingness to compromise and participate in the rest of the
balancing act is inherently problematic.
IETF specifications are always flawed. They are always compromises. There
is always room for improvement. As with any development effort, it becomes
necessary to balance the problems of the flaws with the need to ship product.
It's not my fault that, for example, Klensin is continuning to ignore
Alas, Dan, nothing is ever YOUR fault. Worse, you always see things as
SOMEONE's "fault". You always translate issues into ad hominems.
No. When you talk about every use of a person's name as ``ad hominem''
you simply make yourself sound illiterate.
When you over-interpret the nature and meaning of a statement, you show
yourself to be psychologically disturbed, probably in the realm of
schizoid, but I'm not current on modern classifications.
Now, gosh, wasn't THAT a productive micro-exchange, Dan?
It is not the use of a person's name that I am citing as the basis for
pointing out your constant devolution to ad hominems. It's those curious
qualifiers and claims that you associate with the names. It's the context,
tone and semantics in which the names are used. Surely you can comprehend
the distinction, Dan?
At any rate, you are pursuing a concern about DRUMS, so the topic needs to
be pursued on that list or with the IESG, per IETF rules. Further
discussion of your discomforts about DRUMS, on this mailing list, are
inappropriate.
d/
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- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, (continued)
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, Charles Lindsey
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, Dave Crocker
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, D. J. Bernstein
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, Keith Moore
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, D. J. Bernstein
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, Keith Moore
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, Dave Crocker
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, D. J. Bernstein
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, Dave Crocker
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, D. J. Bernstein
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful,
Dave Crocker <=
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, D. J. Bernstein
- Re: Why the 822bis grammar is so painful, Keith Moore
Re: UTF-8 in headers, Ned Freed
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