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Re: [Asrg] 6. Proposals - Legal - Subject labeling - FTC response

2003-12-02 14:27:48
It seems to us that there is no further research possible within the 
scope of ASRG for this draft, considering its narrow focus. As it
stands
now, the proper forum for this discussion would probably be the IETF.

Therefore, what we would suggest, is to submit the draft to the IETF as
a independent submission and then shift the discussion there. The
proper
forum for this discussion would either be the main IETF mailing list
(as
a starting point), or the ietf-822 mailing list 
(http://www.imc.org/ietf-822/index.html). If the IETF sends it back to 
us, then we can continue discussing it here.



Surely Eric can submit it *independently* whenever he likes? He doesn't
need you to tell him to. Are you trying to say that further discussion
by
the group won't be appreciated - that there's no way such a proposal
would
get group support? Or perhaps support by the chairs is the issue, in
that
support for labelling is seen as support for a particular law?



This draft addresses a very specific requirement. The goal of the group 
is to do research in different areas and present findings. This specific 
draft does not require research since the guidelines for it have already 
been defined, and especially considering that the law concentrates on 
subject labeling specifically, which does not have too many options.



It depends what you call research doesn't it? The group is chartered (among
other things) to "collectively propose and evaluate solutions".



Additionally, the goal of the draft is to be a response of the IETF on 
the issue. The formal body that is allowed to make such response would 
either be the IAB, the IESG or the IETF chair, not the IRTF. Therefore, 
it seems to us that this belongs on the IETF side, since this would be a 
policy issue that needs to be defined by them. We do not want to 
pre-empt their responsibilites, however if they choose to send it back 
to us, we'll be happy to look at it.

Maybe I've got this wrong, and I'm eager to be corrected - surely the
output of this group is going to be (in part) IDs recommended to the
IETF
by the group.


Yes it is, but see my comments above. The IRTF's goal is to do research, 
anything that would be standards making or policy issues for the IETF, 
would go to the IETF.

How about if references to any particular "law", were removed? Would it
then be suitable matter for evaluation here and eventual recommendation
to
the IETF by this group?

And if not, why not? 

I'd be grateful if the chairs could take the trouble to respond to
this.


It can be a suitable matter for evaluation if effectiveness can be 
shown. If the only way these schemes are effective is via law 
enforcement, that would not be a research topic for the ASRG unless we 
are asked to do so by another body: either the IETF or the FTC.


How we measure "effectiveness" has still to be determined (unless I'm
mistaken). But anyway, estimation of effectiveness is an element of, not a
prerequisite for, evaluation. So I'm afraid that this can't be right.

Of course, legal issues are indeed covered by the charter:
"... will not pursue research into legal issues of spam, OTHER THAN the
extent to which these issues affect, support, or constrain the technology."
(my capitals)
This is a instance where a technology and a "legal issue" are intimately
related and mutually supportive.

So, even though this proposal seems fairly well suited for evaluation by
the group - it's not to be allowed for political reasons (at this time).
I'm not knocking this - it's a valid position, and better for being
explicit.

In a sense of course, this proposal has already achieved quite a lot (not
just noise), whether or not it's put forward as an ID.

Thank you for taking the time to clarify,

JK







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