Re: I-D ACTION:draft-klensin-email-envelope-00.txt

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 02:16:34 EST, Hector Santos said:

> May I ask, why do you assume I lack system design or system wide engineering
> integration, design impact, understanding , capability or experience?
I didn't.

You're the one who brought up "closed mind attitude".  You're also the one
who asserted "You guys need to listen and begin opening your minds", without
considering that maybe our minds *are* opened, and we're willing to listen
to new ideas, but *no new ideas are forthcoming*.  More about that later.

You're also making the rash assumption that my reply was directed entirely to
you personally, and not to the lurkers on the list, or to the people who may
read the list archives in the future, trying to figure out why *their*
brilliant pet proposal got shot down...

> 1) the flawed assumption a proposed consideration, concept or idea is not a
> good idea to begin with at any level minimizing possibility or consideration
> for implementation, and
OK, You tell me.  What do *you* tell one of your engineers when they come in
with the *same* idea that 8 other engineers have suggested, and this latest one
hasn't done anything about the fatal flaw you already pointed out to 8 others?

> All I am saying it is a mistake I lack reason,  knowledge or insight in my
> statements.  I appreciate the experience and historical IETF perspectives
> shared by your and other IETF veterans here .  But I will not allow views I
Exactly.  Unfortunately, some of the "historical perspectives" the veterans have
are:

0) Most of the following is oriented towards anti-spam stuff, mostly because
that's the single biggest unsolved problem in the SMTP world.

1) Most "new ideas" are re-inventions of ideas already proposed anywhere from
months to decades before.

2) Most of said ideas have a fatal flaw.  If they didn't, we'd probably have
deployed them the *first* time they were suggested.

3) There's been a *lot* of ideas with fatal flaws.  See Vernon Schryver's intro
to the subject: http://www.rhyolite.com/anti-spam/you-might-be.html And keep in
mind that list is not exhaustive - it's merely the anti-spam ideas Vernon has
seen *so* many times he got annoyed.

4) There's still spam.  Why? Because none of *us* are clever enough to come up
with an idea that doesn't get nailed by at least one point on Vernon's list 
either.
As a result, the most productive use of our time is to point everybody at that 
list
or some similar, and have them self-evaluate their proposal, and let us know if
they think they're really on to something new.  

5) Never try to read too much into the postings of anybody who posts at 3:30AM
who isn't actually employed as third-shift personnel. :)

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