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No debate-Solutions? IAB/ISOC Sponsorship? Re: off-list, Re: IAB/ISOC not IETF Charter Re: What isat stake?

2002-01-24 14:40:02
Ed/John;

Was hoping to get IAB/ISOC to facilitate a mechanism
by which we could get a commitment from industry...
If nothing else, sponsor the initiative,
review/approve the agreement.  There's no doubt the
boards are thoroughly over-tasked.   I didn't envision
us managing or administering any non-compliance
efforts.  Believe it's appropriate for us to sponsor
the initiative however.

John is absolutely correct that teaming with industry
is the only road to success.  
Large Industry Forums must be driven (with $
incentive) to take the initiative to create
synergy/come together on solidifying protocol-level
electronic data interchange agreements for the www. 
Think we thought we had an industry commitment, but we
need to regenerate it with broader (industry) base.  

Who cares if it is a conglomeration of a 100+
protocols as long as Inoperable deviation (standard
non-conformance)is nixed.  The interchange between
apps is very poor even though the "Open systems"
standard(s) initiative is over 15 years in the making.
 Was hoping our org could facilitate that effort...
didn't see us implementing it.  Isn't that an
objective of the ISOC?  Perhaps establishing an IEWG
with ISOC reps and open to industry reps with the
specific goal of
a. Identifying the (existing preferably) Intl.
Corporate leaders Forum that best fits this area.
b. Sealing this type of commitment between "them in
para. a" and ISOC/IAB.
c. Take a covert approach so we don't bring politics
in to our forum development effort.

Definitely think an International organization made up
of industry software product Corporation leaders would
best head & implement a compliance effort focused at
the software app development community and a common
data- interchange format...there are plenty of forums,
a decade of "marketing" talk of "seamless
architectures", yet no synergy noted.

So what IS the solution to maintain (Standards Orgs
Internet-related) protocols'-compliant, configuration
baseline so we can reduce incompatible EDI across the
International Infostructure www, yet facilitating
expeditious fielding of "innovative" ebusiness
commerce enablers & end-user capabilities (& maximize
profits of a product developer)? 
...Excluding telecommunications hardware
implementations... they have agreed to agree
world-wide, whereas software companies have
historically agreed to disagree & implement
proprietary solutions in hope of creating a standard
(at the expense of the end-user). The software
industry big blues failed miserably at creating a
"seamless" architecture... has a lot of zippers for
sure... ha!  ISO & ISEC seem to have an international
following... the electronics industry has done really
well in this arena, not sure why internet software
info exchange is so lacking.  Think the protocols can
be classified as a utility (like electricity) to the
consumer.  Lot's of talk and forums but no synergy
noted.  Obviously "big blue chip" ebusiness can cause
havoc if they implement a gross deviation.

Is John saying that the IAB and ISOC don't want an
agreement/commitment? Don't want to be the
facilitators? Definitely none of want to be the
administrators.

Ideas?  It's never too late to improve and I'd like to
expand this discusson to a "vote" from some of the
international orgs and big blue corporate forums.
My perspective is that the underlying Infostructure
(Internet) "exchange specific" protocols are a
consumer utility & much like telcomm, should be agreed
to by the "Big Blue" Forum.  Will the ISOC/IAB sponsor
this initiative to solidify an industry
concensus-commitment to honor/sponsor a baseline
protocol infrastructure using IETF and let industry
"agree" establish the "policing" methodology.
e.g. just like they did with the continous explosion
in the electronics chip circuitry-components/busses. 

Camile Howerton

 
--- John C Klensin <klensin(_at_)jck(_dot_)com> wrote:
--On Thursday, 24 January, 2002 11:23 -0800 Ed Gerck
<egerck(_at_)nma(_dot_)com> wrote:

Now, let me summarize Case 3 -- which I briefly
outlined
before:

            Case 3. The IETF discusses and
provides a simple,
text-based, format             for communications
sent to a
set of Non-Conformance Lists divided            
in areas. All
NCL communications must have headers that match
the
predefined format, and are parsed/routed for their
purposes,
but no body text             (where the
communication actually
resides, the rest is addressing and            
structure) is
ever parsed. Communications that do not match the
format,
are rejected -- after all, they are
non-conforming.
Subscribers to each             NCL will receive
the
respective postings, that may also be publicly
read
in web archives. Only subscribers to each NCL may
post. There
are no             replies to NCL communications.
All
communications are the exclusive            
responsibility of
the authors, with an IETF hosting content
disclaimer similar
to those used by webhosting services.
Communications expire in
one year,             but may be freely renewed
after
expiration. Once posted, a  communication         
   may be
deleted by request from the poster herself, by the
IETF or
when it             expires. It may only be
deleted by the
IETF if it is clearly spam or if there is         
   a legal
order to do so. The hosting content disclaimer,
complete
absence             of editorial control in
technical matters
and yielding to legal orders should             
avoid the
liability issues, but legal counsel  must be
consulted before
the              service starts.  The NCL should
be free for
mirroring elsewhere.

Since all NCL communications are under the
exclusive
responsability of their own authors, both to post
AND delete,
the authors are thereby encouraged to be
responsible ... or
else. For  additional details, see the posting
below.

Comments?

Yes.  Administering this would be an additional
burden on an
already-overextended IETF Secretariat and the
entities who have
to manage them (primarily the IETF Chair and the
IESG) and that
there would be little value-added in having the IETF
somehow
associated with the process. If there were
significant value
associated with IETF involvement, I'd think about it
differently, but, defined this way, you are
suggesting adding
additional responsibilities, however small, to a
Secretariat and
an IESG that some members of the community feel is
already
stretched too thin and holding things up too much. 
Substituting
the IAB for the IESG in that oversight role wouldn't
change
much, the RFC Editor (another possible arrangement
for
maintaining the lists and archives) is stretched
pretty thin
too, and so on.

That doesn't make the _concept_ a bad one --I
personally find it
somewhat attractive although I remain skeptical
about
significnat impact for the reasons I outlined-- but
I would
encourage you to find someplace outside the IETF to
host and
manage it.

    john



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