No debate-Solutions? IAB/ISOC Sponsorship? Re: off-list, Re: IAB/ISOC not IETF Charter Re: What isat stake?2002-01-24 14:40:02Ed/John; Was hoping to get IAB/ISOC to facilitate a mechanism by which we could get a commitment from industry... If nothing else, sponsor the initiative, review/approve the agreement. There's no doubt the boards are thoroughly over-tasked. I didn't envision us managing or administering any non-compliance efforts. Believe it's appropriate for us to sponsor the initiative however. John is absolutely correct that teaming with industry is the only road to success. Large Industry Forums must be driven (with $ incentive) to take the initiative to create synergy/come together on solidifying protocol-level electronic data interchange agreements for the www. Think we thought we had an industry commitment, but we need to regenerate it with broader (industry) base. Who cares if it is a conglomeration of a 100+ protocols as long as Inoperable deviation (standard non-conformance)is nixed. The interchange between apps is very poor even though the "Open systems" standard(s) initiative is over 15 years in the making. Was hoping our org could facilitate that effort... didn't see us implementing it. Isn't that an objective of the ISOC? Perhaps establishing an IEWG with ISOC reps and open to industry reps with the specific goal of a. Identifying the (existing preferably) Intl. Corporate leaders Forum that best fits this area. b. Sealing this type of commitment between "them in para. a" and ISOC/IAB. c. Take a covert approach so we don't bring politics in to our forum development effort. Definitely think an International organization made up of industry software product Corporation leaders would best head & implement a compliance effort focused at the software app development community and a common data- interchange format...there are plenty of forums, a decade of "marketing" talk of "seamless architectures", yet no synergy noted. So what IS the solution to maintain (Standards Orgs Internet-related) protocols'-compliant, configuration baseline so we can reduce incompatible EDI across the International Infostructure www, yet facilitating expeditious fielding of "innovative" ebusiness commerce enablers & end-user capabilities (& maximize profits of a product developer)? ...Excluding telecommunications hardware implementations... they have agreed to agree world-wide, whereas software companies have historically agreed to disagree & implement proprietary solutions in hope of creating a standard (at the expense of the end-user). The software industry big blues failed miserably at creating a "seamless" architecture... has a lot of zippers for sure... ha! ISO & ISEC seem to have an international following... the electronics industry has done really well in this arena, not sure why internet software info exchange is so lacking. Think the protocols can be classified as a utility (like electricity) to the consumer. Lot's of talk and forums but no synergy noted. Obviously "big blue chip" ebusiness can cause havoc if they implement a gross deviation. Is John saying that the IAB and ISOC don't want an agreement/commitment? Don't want to be the facilitators? Definitely none of want to be the administrators. Ideas? It's never too late to improve and I'd like to expand this discusson to a "vote" from some of the international orgs and big blue corporate forums. My perspective is that the underlying Infostructure (Internet) "exchange specific" protocols are a consumer utility & much like telcomm, should be agreed to by the "Big Blue" Forum. Will the ISOC/IAB sponsor this initiative to solidify an industry concensus-commitment to honor/sponsor a baseline protocol infrastructure using IETF and let industry "agree" establish the "policing" methodology. e.g. just like they did with the continous explosion in the electronics chip circuitry-components/busses. Camile Howerton --- John C Klensin <klensin(_at_)jck(_dot_)com> wrote: --On Thursday, 24 January, 2002 11:23 -0800 Ed Gerck <egerck(_at_)nma(_dot_)com> wrote:Now, let me summarize Case 3 -- which I brieflyoutlinedbefore: Case 3. The IETF discusses andprovides a simple,text-based, format for communicationssent to aset of Non-Conformance Lists dividedin areas. AllNCL communications must have headers that matchthepredefined format, and are parsed/routed for theirpurposes,but no body text (where thecommunication actuallyresides, the rest is addressing andstructure) isever parsed. Communications that do not match theformat,are rejected -- after all, they arenon-conforming.Subscribers to each NCL will receivetherespective postings, that may also be publiclyreadin web archives. Only subscribers to each NCL maypost. Thereare no replies to NCL communications.Allcommunications are the exclusiveresponsibility ofthe authors, with an IETF hosting contentdisclaimer similarto those used by webhosting services.Communications expire inone year, but may be freely renewedafterexpiration. Once posted, a communicationmay bedeleted by request from the poster herself, by theIETF orwhen it expires. It may only bedeleted by theIETF if it is clearly spam or if there isa legalorder to do so. The hosting content disclaimer,completeabsence of editorial control intechnical mattersand yielding to legal orders shouldavoid theliability issues, but legal counsel must beconsulted beforethe service starts. The NCL shouldbe free formirroring elsewhere. Since all NCL communications are under theexclusiveresponsability of their own authors, both to postAND delete,the authors are thereby encouraged to beresponsible ... orelse. For additional details, see the postingbelow.Comments?Yes. Administering this would be an additional burden on an already-overextended IETF Secretariat and the entities who have to manage them (primarily the IETF Chair and the IESG) and that there would be little value-added in having the IETF somehow associated with the process. If there were significant value associated with IETF involvement, I'd think about it differently, but, defined this way, you are suggesting adding additional responsibilities, however small, to a Secretariat and an IESG that some members of the community feel is already stretched too thin and holding things up too much. Substituting the IAB for the IESG in that oversight role wouldn't change much, the RFC Editor (another possible arrangement for maintaining the lists and archives) is stretched pretty thin too, and so on. That doesn't make the _concept_ a bad one --I personally find it somewhat attractive although I remain skeptical about significnat impact for the reasons I outlined-- but I would encourage you to find someplace outside the IETF to host and manage it. john __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com
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