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FW: Issue with Meeting Schedule change at the last moment

2004-11-05 04:23:34


_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: 
+1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Stephane H. Maes [mailto:stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 12:16 PM
To: exec-director(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org; ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org; 
iesg-secretary(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Cc: Eric Burger; Glenn Parsons
Subject: Issue with Meeting Schedule change at the last moment
Importance: High


Dear Sir or Madam,

I would like to log a formal complain and objection against the apparent 
decision to accept a late change of agenda. I want to appeal this decision; if 
indeed it is possible to simply brush away our concerns as seems to have been 
the case - see below.

I believe that this decision and the change in question are unwise, 
unreasonable and disfranchising participants. It may probably even violates 
process and cutoff dates. In any case, it is impossible to make appropriate 
travel plans if such changes are allowed. 

I consider that this is fundamentally grave incident that goes beyond the 
particular details of the lemonade meeting. It must be addressed in practice 
now and in appropriate process updates if the process was correctly followed or 
of there is no process on this.

So, we demand that the meeting changes be rejected so that Lemonade only meets 
on Wednesday as was originally scheduled (at least as late as October 28th on 
ietf.org) and not announced till Nov 2 on Lemonade(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org(_dot_)

We also demand clarification of the deadline for change of the IETF agenda and 
if needed setting appropriate deadlines (e.g. 15 days) as for most other 
standard bodies and industry fora.

I hope common sense will prevail and that IETF will put first and foremost the 
participants to its WGs and meetings and not unduly burden them with having to 
choose between unreasonable challenges with their travel plans and the cost of 
rescheduling or being disfranchised from the discussions.

Your immediate attention in this matter is required.

Thanks

Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: 
+1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
 
I frankly don't understand. Clearly, the message and the objection does not 
resonate... This situation is unreasonable and I object to it. 

Also, http://www.ietf.org/meetings/cutoff_dates_61.html does not indicate that 
WG scheduled slots can still change. When was the change done? The change was 
not displayed by Oct 28. The changes were communicated to Lemonade on Nov 2 - 
after the Nov 1 deadline if we stick to that line of reasoning. So I believe 
that in any case we have process / cut-off date violation; whatever 
unreasonable that it may be. 

I wish to formally log with IETF my complain and escalate / appeal the decision 
if any has been made final. Where / how?

I wish common sense would prevail here.

Thanks

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: 
+1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephane H. Maes [mailto:stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 11:01 AM
To: iesg-secretary(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: [Inquiry #18878] AutoReply: Issue with Meeting Schedule change at the 
last moment
Importance: High


Dear Sir or Madam,

I would like this request to reject the meeting change to be followed up by the 
IETF organization and appropriately handled as soon as possible. You will 
understand that it may stills affect the travel plans of many...

The explanations for the changes given below, while probably quite valid, do 
not justify that such late change be warranted.

I am left with no other option than to object to the changes. Please note the 
objection. I would appreciate your help to act on it.

Could you also clarify the escalation process in place if the request is not 
acted upon or denied?

Thanks

Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: 
+1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Stephane H. Maes [mailto:stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 10:47 AM
To: Ted Hardie; Eric Burger; lemonade(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Cc: Glenn Parsons
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Meeting Schedule - Can we cancel Monday meeting?


Ted,

Thanks for the explanation. I understand that this may be an exceptional 
situation with unique circumstances that led to the change of schedule. 
Although I had already left when it was discussed, I also agree that 2 slots 
would have been better than one and useful to accomplish enough work. The 
intention was good.

However, this is where I think that a due process should be in place explicitly 
in order to prevent that such situations when they occur simply imply changes 
of schedule at the last moment. Again most standard / industry fora have 
deadlines for meeting scheduling and changes in place. I would be surprised if 
the IETF does not; especially considering the large number of budget 
constrained IETF participants...

So, acknowledging the good intent and that more slots are needed and that they 
should be allocated for Lemonade in the future, I still believe that it is 
unwise to have such a change at this time;  independently of the good reasons 
that have been enumerated.

I believe that there must have been ample time to re-schedule early enough 
e-mail related activities if there were concerns of overlap with other parallel 
activities. It can't justify a late change. More troublesome even, I am now 
reading that because of the overlap the meeting expected to be the main one 
(main attendance) would be the one on Monday, at the new slot? This is not 
acceptable.

Therefore, and in order to avoid protracted debate, I must firmly object to the 
schedule changes and re-iterate my request to cancel the Monday meeting. Please 
note that it should be understood that this should not be considered as a 
request to "cancel a scheduled meeting" but rather as a rejection of a change 
of schedule that occurred / was communicated way too late...

Thanks

Stephane
_____Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: 
+1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Hardie [mailto:hardie(_at_)qualcomm(_dot_)com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 8:42 AM
To: Stephane H. Maes; Eric Burger; lemonade(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Cc: Glenn Parsons
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Meeting Schedule - Can we cancel Monday meeting?


At 9:37 PM -0800 11/2/04, Stephane H. Maes wrote:
In order to accommodate this issue, I would like to request that 
Lemonade meeting *only* takes place on Wednesday PM and that the Monday 
meeting be canceled!


In the working group discussion in Vancouver, I heard a very clear statement 
from the Chairs that the working group would need two meeting slots, and I 
approved those slots with the Secretariat when asked.  Given the FTC email 
authentication summit on Tuesday and Wednesday, I am already concerned about 
attendance at e-mail related groups on those days.  Cancelling 
a scheduled
working  group meeting to have a meeting only during that window is unwise, in 
my opinion.

I understand your frustration with the agenda scheduling problem.  It is 
perennial, with some updates even happening after the IETF week starts.  This 
IETF week's problems are worse than usual because a late award of the hotel 
contract meant we have fewer rooms and thus less slack to use parallel 
scheduling.  Getting contract awards back on track is one thing I hope will be 
resolved by the administrative restructuring process, so hopefully this problem 
will be less critical at future meetings.

In the mean time, please remember that the IETF process requires that all 
decisions taken at meetings be confirmed on the mailing list, and that you will 
have a chance at the Wednesday slot for informal conversations
about work done on Monday.   While we would all be happier if active
participants were available for the meeting slots and likely side discussions, 
we will all simply have to recognize that the process provides ways to make 
progress even when this is not so.

Again, I am sorry for your frustration in this matter,
                                regards,
                                        Ted Hardie


_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: 
+1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
 

To whom it may concern,

I would appreciate your help in addressing this matter.

I do not believe that it is appropriate to make late agenda changes where WG 
meetings are moved from one day to another. These are making it simply 
impossible to settle travel arrangements and this disfranchise participants.

To that extent in this matter we would like to have the Monday session 
cancelled.

In addition, we would like to understand the process in place (if any) and 
amended to avoid this in the future.

Your immediate help on this matter would be appreciated.

Thanks

Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: 
+1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Stephane H. Maes [mailto:stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 9:37 PM
To: Eric Burger; lemonade(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Cc: Glenn Parsons
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Meeting Schedule - Can we cancel Monday meeting?


Eric and all,

As I did not get any answer yet, I must raise the issue.

I think that it is inappropriate to have such significative change in the 
agenda taking place so close before the meeting. This is making travel 
arrangements impossible to make or to update. We need to have a more reasonable 
process and deadlines for such changes. If they exist and were respected, I am 
not aware of them, but in any way they would then be ridiculously way too short 
and need to be questioned. No other standard body that I know would accept such 
late agenda change!

To the best that I know and understand how this goes, participation to lemonade 
does not imply nor require participation to any other IETF activities. It is 
therefore not reasonable to expect participants to be able to attend a meeting 
another day when the change occurs the week before (as far as I noticed).

In my case I carefully crafted an itinerary from SFO to Europe to DC that now 
falls apart!

In order to accommodate this issue, I would like to request that Lemonade 
meeting *only* takes place on Wednesday PM and that the Monday meeting be 
canceled! 

Thanks you in advance for your help in this matter.

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: 
+1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
 


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org 
[mailto:lemonade-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org] On Behalf Of Eric Burger
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:37 AM
To: lemonade(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: [lemonade] Meeting Schedule


MONDAY, November 8, 2004
1300-1500 Afternoon Sessions I
APP  lemonade   Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service
Environments WG


WEDNESDAY, November 10, 2004
1530-1730 Afternoon Sessions II
APP  lemonade   Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service
Environments WG

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