FW: [Inquiry #19085] Issue with Meeting Schedule change at the last moment
2004-11-05 04:27:01
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM:
+1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephane H. Maes [mailto:stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 6:30 PM
To: iesg-secretary(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org; ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org;
exec-director(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: RE: [Inquiry #19085] Issue with Meeting Schedule change at the last
moment
Ted and all,
I am very dissappointed at the approach and lack of process. Apparently this
all resolve around the decision of one person?
I have difficulty to understand why this is not reverted when contested. I also
have difficulty understanding how such a position can be taken. The agenda was
draft? So it can't be draft till the end? People have to make their travel
arrangements? So eithere the change is too late or the draft agenda remained
draft too late. I can't believe you argue this is acceptable.
It is regrettable thai is the way forward. Common sense should have prevailed
when the issue was raised.
Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM:
+1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
-----Original Message-----
From: Apache [mailto:apache(_at_)ticket(_dot_)ietf(_dot_)org] On Behalf Of Ted
Hardie via RT
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:59 PM
To: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
Subject: Re: [Inquiry #19085] Issue with Meeting Schedule change at the last
moment
At 7:06 PM -0500 11/3/04, via RT wrote:
Dear Harald:
Hi Harald:
As you will see, Stephane Maes has lodged a formal complaint with the
Secretariat about a perceived late change to the agenda that resulted
in the scheduling of a second lemonade session on Monday, November 8 in
addition to the session scheduled on Wednesday, November 10. Stephane
is "demanding" that the Monday session be cancelled.
Ted has already responded to Stephane, but Stephane is continuing to
pursue the issue. Do you want to respond or should we? If the latter,
then what do you suggest that we say?
Thanks.
Barbara
Howdy folks,
This reply, which I sent to the Lemonade group this morning, is not included in
his set. Given that the Agenda is clearly marked draft, I understand his
frustration, but special casing this and cancelling is not in the interests of
the group.
<begin>
At 10:46 AM -0800 11/3/04, Stephane H. Maes wrote:
However, this is where I think that a due process should be in place
explicitly in order to prevent that such situations when they occur
simply imply changes of schedule at the last moment. Again most
standard / industry fora have deadlines for meeting scheduling and
changes in place. I would be surprised if the IETF does not; especially
considering the large number of budget constrained IETF participants...
The last date at which requests could be made for slots (BoFs or working
groups) was October 25th, 2004. All agendas prior to that point must be
considered as subject to change, since the Secretariat cannot know what they
may need to move to handle new requests. Even the agenda sent out by the
Secretariat on Monday was marked draft, as there was new data indicating
conflicts that still needed resolution. The dates for this are documented here:
http://www.ietf.org/meetings/cutoff_dates_61.html
Again, I am sorry that this is problematic, but the agenda on which you
apparently based travel was marked as a draft agenda and subject to change.
There are other discussions under way to discuss whether the IETF schedule has
too large a presumption that participants are present for the whole week, but
this isn't the right mailing list to hold that discussion.
Therefore, and in order to avoid protracted debate, I must firmly
object to the schedule changes and re-iterate my request to cancel the
Monday meeting. Please note that it should be understood that this
should not be considered as a request to "cancel a scheduled meeting"
but rather as a rejection of a change of schedule that occurred / was
communicated way too late...
The effect of this is to cancel a scheduled meeting slot and reduce the total
time available to the group. Given the other processes mentioned (the
confirmation of decisions on the mailing list, summaries at the second
meeting), I cannot see how losing this face-to-face time benefits the group.
This does not mean I am not sympathetic, but I still must encourage the group
to make the best use of all the time it has available.
regards,
Ted Hardie
_______________________________________________
<end>
-----------------------------------------------------
[stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com - Wed Nov 03 16:02:02 2004]:
Dear Sir or Madam,
I would like to log a formal complain and objection against the
apparent decision to accept a late change of agenda. I want to
appeal this decision; if indeed it is possible to simply brush away
our concerns as seems to have been the case - see below.
I believe that this decision and the change in question are unwise,
unreasonable and disfranchising participants. It may probably even
violates process and cutoff dates. In any case, it is impossible to
make appropriate travel plans if such changes are allowed.
I consider that this is fundamentally grave incident that goes beyond
the particular details of the lemonade meeting. It must be
> addressed in pactice now and in appropriate process updates if the
process was correctly followed or of there is no process on this.
So, we demand that the meeting changes be rejected so that Lemonade
only meets on Wednesday as was originally scheduled (at least as
late as October 28th on ietf.org) and not announced till Nov 2 on
Lemonade(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org(_dot_)
We also demand clarification of the deadline for change of the IETF
agenda and if needed setting appropriate deadlines (e.g. 15 days)
as for most other standard bodies and industry fora.
I hope common sense will prevail and that IETF will put first and
foremost the participants to its WGs and meetings and not unduly
burden them with having to choose between unreasonable challenges
with their travel plans and the cost of rescheduling or being
disfranchised from the discussions.
Your immediate attention in this matter is required.
Thanks
Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-
650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
I frankly don't understand. Clearly, the message and the objection
does not resonate... This situation is unreasonable and I object to
it.
Also, http://www.ietf.org/meetings/cutoff_dates_61.html does not
indicate that WG scheduled slots can still change. When was the
change done? The change was not displayed by Oct 28. The changes
were communicated to Lemonade on Nov 2 - after the Nov 1 deadline
if we stick to that line of reasoning. So I believe that in any
case we have process / cut-off date violation; whatever
unreasonable that it may be.
I wish to formally log with IETF my complain and escalate / appeal the
decision if any has been made final. Where / how?
I wish common sense would prevail here.
Thanks
Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-
650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephane H. Maes [mailto:stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 11:01 AM
To: iesg-secretary(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: [Inquiry #18878] AutoReply: Issue with Meeting Schedule
change at the last moment
Importance: High
Dear Sir or Madam,
I would like this request to reject the meeting change to be followed
up by the IETF organization and appropriately handled as soon as
possible. You will understand that it may stills affect the travel
plans of many...
The explanations for the changes given below, while probably quite
valid, do not justify that such late change be warranted.
I am left with no other option than to object to the changes. Please
note the objection. I would appreciate your help to act on it.
Could you also clarify the escalation process in place if the request
is not acted upon or denied?
Thanks
Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-
650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephane H. Maes [mailto:stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 10:47 AM
To: Ted Hardie; Eric Burger; lemonade(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Cc: Glenn Parsons
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Meeting Schedule- Can we cancel Monday
meeting?
Ted,
Thanks for the explanation. I understand that this may be an
exceptional situation with unique circumstances that led to the
change of schedule. Although I had already left when it was
discussed, I also agree that 2 slots would have been better than
> one and useful to accomplish enough work. The intention was good.
However, this is where I think that a due process should be in place
explicitly in order to prevent that such situations when they occur
simply imply changes of schedule at the last moment. Again most
standard / industry fora have deadlines for meeting scheduling and
changes in place. I would be surprised if the IETF does not;
especially considering the large number of budget constrained IETF
participants...
So, acknowledging the good intent and that more slots are needed and
that they should be allocated for Lemonade in the future, I still
believe that it is unwise to have such a change at this time;
independently of the good reasons that have been enumerated.
I believe that there must have been ample time to re-schedule early
enough e-mail related activities if there were concerns of overlap
with other parallel activities. It can't justify a late change.
More troublesome even, I am now reading that because of the overlap
the meeting expected to be the main one (main attendance) would be
the one on Monday, at the new slot? This is not acceptable.
Therefore, and in order to avoid protracted debate, I must firmly
object to the schedule changes and re-iterate my request to cancel
the Monday meeting. Please note that it should be understood that
this should not be considered as a request to "cancel a scheduled
meeting" but rather as a rejection of a change of schedule that
occurred / was communicated way too late...
Thanks
Stephane
_____Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-
650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Hardie [mailto:hardie(_at_)qualcomm(_dot_)com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 8:42 AM
To: Stephane H. Maes; Eric Burger; lemonade(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Cc: Glenn Parsons
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Meeting Schedule - Can we cancel Monday
meeting?
At 9:37 PM -0800 11/2/04, Stephane H. Maes wrote:
>In order to accommodate this issue, I would like to request that
Lemonade meeting *only* takes place on Wednesday PM and that the
Monday
>meeting be canceled!
>
In the working group discussion in Vancouver, I heard a very clear
statement from the Chairs that the working group would need two
meeting slots, and I approved those slots with the Secretariat when
asked. Given the FTC email authentication summit on Tuesday and
Wednesday, I am already concerned about attendance at e-mail
related groups on those days. Cancelling
a scheduled
working group meeting to have a meeting only during that window is
unwise, in my opinion.
I understand your frustration with the agenda scheduling problem. It
is perennial, with some updates even happening after the IETF week
starts. This IETF week's problems are worse than usual because a
late award of the hotel contract meant we have fewer rooms and thus
less slack to use parallel scheduling. Getting contract awards
back on track is one thing I hope will be resolved by the
administrative restructuring process, so hopefully this problem
will be less critical at future meetings.
In the mean time, please remember that the IETF rocess requires that
all decisions taken at meetings be confirmed on the mailing list,
and that you will have a chance at the Wednesday slot for informal
conversations
about work done on Monday. While we would all be happier if active
participants were available for the meeting slots and likely side
discussions, we will all simply have to recognize that the process
provides ways to make progress even when this is not so.
Again, I am sorry for your frustration in this matter,
regards,
Ted Hardie
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
> Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-
650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
To whom it may concern,
I would appreciate your help in addressing this matter.
I do not believe that it is appropriate to make late agenda changes
where WG meetings are moved from one day to another. These are
making it simply impossible to settle travel arrangements and this
disfranchise participants.
To that extent in this matter we would like to have the Monday session
cancelled.
In addition, we would like to understand the process in place (if any)
and amended to avoid this in the future.
Your immediate help on this matter would be appreciated.
Thanks
Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-
650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephane H. Maes [mailto:stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 9:37 PM
To: Eric Burger; lemonade(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Cc: Glenn Parsons
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Meeting Schedule - Can we cancel Monday
meeting?
Eric and all,
As I did not get any answer yet, I must raise the issue.
I think that it is inappropriate to have such significative change in
the agenda taking place so close before the meeting. This is making
travel arrangements impossible to make or to update. We need to
have a more reasonable process and deadlines for such changes. If
they exist and were respected, I am not aware of them, but in any
way they would then be ridiculously way too short and need to be
questioned. No other standard body that I know would accept such
late agenda change!
To the best that I know and understand how this goes, participation to
lemonade does not imply nor require participation to any other IETF
activities. It is therefore not reasonable to expect participants
to be able to attend a meeting another day when the change occurs
the week before (as far as I noticed).
In my case I carefully crafted an itinerary from SFO to Europe to DC
that now falls apart!
In order to accommodate this issue, I would like to request that
Lemonade meeting *only* takes place on Wednesday PM and that the
Monday meeting be canceled!
Thanks you in advance for your help in this matter.
Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-
650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane(_dot_)maes(_at_)oracle(_dot_)com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes(_at_)hotmail(_dot_)com (MSN Messenger)
-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
[mailto:lemonade-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org] On
Behalf Of Eric Burger
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:37 AM
To: lemonade(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: [lemonade]Meeting Schedule
MONDAY, November 8, 2004
1300-1500 Afternoon Sessions I
APP lemonade Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse
Service
Environments WG
WEDNESDAY, November 10, 2004
1530-1730 Afternoon Sessions II
APP lemonade Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse
Service
Environments WG
_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
_______________________________________________
Ietf mailing list
Ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
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