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RE: Image attachments to ASCII RFCs (was: Re: Last Call: 'Proposed Experiment: Normative Format in Addition to ASCII Text' to Experimental RFC (draft-ash-alt-formats))

2006-06-16 13:40:00
John,

        You mean that we should update the current medieval print format to 
take advantage of the best technology available to the Victorians?

        Why go to all that trouble to create infrastructure to support an 
obsolete document format when we can get all the infrastructure required to 
support a modern, open format that delivers professional results for free?

        Moreover there is a much higher probability that third party tools will 
support a common W3C/IETF format than an IETF only format. 

                Phill

-----Original Message-----
From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf(_at_)jck(_dot_)com] 
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 1:14 PM
To: John R Levine
Cc: ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: Image attachments to ASCII RFCs (was: Re: Last Call: 
'Proposed Experiment: Normative Format in Addition to ASCII 
Text' to Experimental RFC (draft-ash-alt-formats))



--On Thursday, June 15, 2006 09:39 -0400 John R Levine 
<johnl(_at_)iecc(_dot_)com> wrote:

But one of the important criteria for an acceptable 
alternate form, 
one which came up in the earlier discussion on this list, 
is that the 
format be searchable.

In case it wasn't clear, my quite informal suggestion was that one 
might attach a few GIF illusttrations to an ASCII document, sort of 
like a paper book that has a few color plates glued in the back.  I 
agree it would be nuts to put text into GIF.

I continue to wonder whether what we should be doing here is 
not to invent a new normative document format, but to figure out how 
attach image-type figures to ASCII RFCs.   "plates glued in the 
back" is almost exactly the same as the analogy I have been 
thinking about.

So, while I don't think this particular experiment, as 
described, is plausible, there are two ideas I'd like to see 
proposed, perhaps experimentally, for the future:

(1) A PDF approach, but with PDF carefully researched and 
profiled (to include searchability and copy-and-paste 
extraction in addition to stability and very wide 
availability for readers and formatters) and a back-out plan 
should the community not be happy about the experimental results.

(2) Some specific and well-thought out proposals for a 
"figure supplement" to RFCs with multiple figures in a single 
file, good naming conventions, and so on.  A PDF file of 
figure-images might be the right thing to use; there might be 
better ones. 
But, as a strawman, we might have.

          rfcNNNN.txt   (as now)  and
          rfcNNNN-figs.pdf
      
      Where rfcNNNN.txt would contain things like
      
          Figure 3. A Left Handed Foogle (please see
      supplement)
      with or without a rudimentary ASCII drawing.
      
      and rfcNNNN-figs.pdf would contain numbered and
      captioned figures, one per page.

There are probably better ways to do this -- I haven't 
thought through the details -- but I think that there is the 
core of an interesting idea in this.

It would _not_ be a small experiment: it implies changes to 
our archives, changes to indexing systems, more work for the 
RFC Editor in verifying that figure numbers, captions, and 
content were consistent between the ASCII RFC and the 
"plates", and so on.  But it would appear to me to point to a 
way forward that would not share most of the disadvantages of 
normative PDF files.

        john

p.s. When I said "should not have been last-called" in a 
prior note, I wasn't trying to suggest that the _idea_ was 
obviously dead or bad.  I was trying to suggest, instead, 
that, when an idea is discussed at length on the IETF list 
and a number of issues raised with it, it is normal for the 
IESG to insist that any version of the idea that is 
subsequently to be last-called 
address most of those issues in some substantive way.   "We 
don't see X as a problem" may be appropriate; pretending 
(deliberately or by accidental omission) that X was not 
raised or discussed as an issue is usually not.  The fraction 
of the Last Call discussion that essentially duplicates the 
discussions of some months ago is probably testimony to the 
wisdom of that principle.



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