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Re: Crisis of Faith - was Re: Adjusting the Nomcom process

2006-09-14 08:49:27
Thanks Dean -

Which brings up the issues of liability and agency... Especially since there
is no HOLD HARMLESS component of the Boilerplate.


Todd
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dean Anderson" <dean(_at_)av8(_dot_)com>
To: "Theodore Tso" <tytso(_at_)mit(_dot_)edu>
Cc: "todd glassey" <tglassey(_at_)earthlink(_dot_)net>; 
<dcrocker(_at_)bbiw(_dot_)net>;
<ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: Crisis of Faith - was Re: Adjusting the Nomcom process


IETF volunteer staff are employees of the ISOC. That they aren't paid
may make them gratuitous employees (see below). Gratuitous employees are
still employees with just about the same obligations and duties of paid
employees.  I just happen to have the Restatement of the Law of Agency
open:

======================
§ 16 Consideration
The relation of principal and agent can be created although neither
party receives consideration.

§ 16 Comment b. Gratuitous agents
[...] However, during the existence of the relation a gratuitous agent
has the same power to affect the principal.s relations with third
persons as if he were paid, and his liabilities to and rights against
third persons are the same. Further, he may be liable to the principal
for failing to perform a promise on which the principal has relied (see
§ 378), or for harm caused by his careless performance (see § 379), and
he is subject to all the paid agent.s duties of loyalty. See § 387,
Comment c.  Likewise a gratuitous agent has the same rights of indemnity
against the principal as has the paid agent. See §§ 438-440.
======================


IETF employees also receive benefits such as insurance, educational
benefits, and sometimes travel benefits.  This makes them paid employees

======================
§ 441 comment d. Non-gratuitous services not paid for in money. A person
may act for compensation and not gratuitously although he receives no
money or other thing for his services, as where one learning a trade or
profession renders services in consideration of the opportunity offered
him to gain skill. Likewise, the services of an agent whose compensation
is contingent upon a condition which does not occur are not given
gratuitously.  In both cases the one acting has the duties and rights of
an agent acting for compensation, either in an action of contract, if
the principal commits a breach of contract, or, under some
circumstances, in an action for restitution.
======================





On Sun, 10 Sep 2006, Theodore Tso wrote:

On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 09:44:12AM -0700, todd glassey wrote:
BRIAN - you have totally missed the point - No offense meant, but
your personal word nor any other IETF/IESG staff member  is what is
not to
be relied on - whether you are telling the truth or not is
irrelevant - the
process has a hole in it large enough to drive a Mack truck through.

Todd, it's clear you don't have any faith in anyone on the IESG (they
aren't "staff", by the way, they are volunteers), but at the same
time, the vast majority of those who have spoken on this thread have
clearly expressed that they believe that all concerned were acting in
good faith, and that no harm was done.

You may not believe that, but as a suggestion, your constant and
strident attacks quite frankly weaken your own credibility.  So if you
do have a particular goal of changing how the IETF works, being a bit
more thoughtful about suggesting changes will tend to probably serve
your goals better than your current style of attacking people like
Brian and other IESG members.

Regards,

- Ted

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