Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)

The only reason why a RT direct airfare would not have exceeded hotel costs
was because I came early as I attended another meeting in San JOse just
prior to IETF and I was attending a workshop on Saturday. If I had arrived
on Saturday the direct RT airfare would have exceeded hotel costs.

Mary.

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <
Chris(_dot_)Dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com> wrote:

 Those prices still sound like a week's hotel costs would exceed them.
And I would expect the cost of your time to your employer to exceed even
that. I'm not suggesting airfare prices don't matter, not by any stretch of
the imagination, just that they are third if you stay a whole week. Or
maybe fourth, there's also the IETF charge to consider, but that's less
flexible (week or day) and not highly location dependent. Of course if you
go for just a day the airfare is quite likely to be number one on the list,
unless the location is relatively local.****

** **

-- ****

Christopher Dearlove****

Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124****

chris(_dot_)dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com | http://www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre,
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687****

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*From:* Mary Barnes [mailto:mary(_dot_)ietf(_dot_)barnes(_at_)gmail(_dot_)com]
*Sent:* 06 August 2012 15:42
*To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
*Cc:* Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew
Sullivan; ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
*Subject:* Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)****

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 Flights to Vancouver from some cities were extremely expensive.  It
would have cost me more than twice as much as it did to fly to Beijing, for
example, if I had taken a direct flight from DFW - it would have been by
far my most expensive IETF airfare ever. I didn't because I was trying to
be cost conscious.  However, I could have flown to London in the same time
it took me to get to/from Vancouver and for about the same price.  This is
a typical problem when we go somewhere when tourists go (for some reason,
flying to cities in Canada is very popular when the temp in Texas is 110
degrees F).     Orlando will most likely be just as bad since it is
scheduled during a time where many schools in DFW area have Spring Break -
flight costs right now are over $500 ($560).  I can usually fly anywhere in
the U.S. for around $300 when I book early.  And, of course, I can't book
early as my company won't re-imburse unless I use their travel company and
have approval (which I won't get for at least another 5-6 months).
Hopefully, the IETF negotiated hotel rate won't reflect that it is Spring
Break.   ****

** **

If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the
best choice IMHO.  It's very reasonably priced, easy for many to get to and
the hotel has adequate space for us (even back when we had many more
attendees).  Personally, the weather is not critical to me, since I spend
the vast majority of my time in the hotel meeting rooms, so I'm very happy
if we meet there in March and November.   ****

** **

Mary****

** **

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <
Chris(_dot_)Dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com> wrote:****

I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the
hotel cost for a week. Caveats to that are that I have mostly gone for IETF
recommended hotels, so may have missed particularly cheap hotels, and that
I have only been to North American and Europe (but that statistic includes
Vancouver and the even further away western US cities down to San Diego).
And of course I fly economy, and it's much cheaper including a Saturday
night in your trip, even at the cost of an extra night in a hotel (at least
it is from here). An almost exception was Paris this year where I was
staying fairly cheaply, but that was a cost-shared trip between me and my
employer, and I didn't fly (I went by train - though that's not cheaper,
just better). Paris has cheap(er) hotels and a metro I understand, so I
felt less location constrained.****


--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris(_dot_)dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com | http://www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre,
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687


-----Original Message-----****

From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) [mailto:
nurit(_dot_)sprecher(_at_)nsn(_dot_)com]
Sent: 06 August 2012 15:07
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan;
ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)****

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When you are not close (time), flight cost may become higher in the
priority (over hotem)....
Flying to Vancouver for me for example is the most expensive trip....even
though the city is amazing and the host was wonderful!

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org 
[mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org] On Behalf Of
ext Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:56 PM
To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)

Dublin's problem was that the venue was isolated from the city. This has
also been the case with e.g. San Diego. (I'm assuming no personal car.)
Contrast with Minneapolis (and several other places) where you were right
in the city. Being in a city is better for lunch and dinner options, taking
a break to go to a bookshop (or to buy something you forgot to bring) and
so on. (I'm deliberately not including tourism here.)

However at the moment my priorities to make being able to attend possible
would be time (so the closer to me the better - I realise that's impossible
globally), cost (hotel first, flight second, rest is noise) and the ability
to plan ahead to only attend part of the week. This is the current economic
reality. Dublin actually scores quite well on those for me.

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris(_dot_)dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com | http://www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre,
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687


-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org 
[mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org] On Behalf Of
Daniele Ceccarelli
Sent: 06 August 2012 13:24
To: Andrew Sullivan; ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)

----------------------! WARNING ! ----------------------
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Dublin panned? I thought it was one of the best venues and locations of
the last meetings.

What about Italy or Spain? I've never heard about an IETF in Italy. I'm ok
with meetings outside Italy since i like traveling very much, but i was
wondering why it has never been taken into account in the past meetings. Is
it expensive? I think Italy and Spain are much cheaper than France, UK or
Sweden, aren't they?

BR
Daniele

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org 
[mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
Sent: lunedì 6 agosto 2012 14.06
To: ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)

On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 11:58:19AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote:

enough merely to have excellent staff.  We need to go back to the
better places and benefit from the learning curve.  This

doesn't mean

"no new venues" but it means fewer.


As a practical matter, may I ask about which venues you want
to return to?  I get your argument in principle, but it seems
to me that there has been quite a lot of complaining in the
past.  The one factor that seems to me most likely to reduce
complaints -- weather -- is evidently beyond the Secretariat's
or IAOC's control.

People seem inclined to return to the Hyatt in Vancouver,
elevators notwithstanding.  We're going to do that.  (I don't
understand why the previous Vencouver venue was less desirable
-- to me, these venues were very similar, and not very far
apart.  I note, however, that the previous two Vancouver
visits were near the end of the year, when it rains all the
time in Vancouver.)

People complained at length about the venue in Paris, so I
presume it's out.

Some people complained about the hotel room prices and travel
expense in Taipei, though I heard remarks that it was a good venue.
Should we try to return there?

People complained in advance about getting to Québec, although
afterwards I heard lots of good noises about that venue.  I
note that the weather was great.  Should we try to return?

I don't recall much complaining about the Prague venue in
2011, which was striking to me because very little seemed
different to me compared to our first visit there.  Perhaps
this is evidence of the "tuning"
you suggest (ensuring the water bottles were plastic, for instance).
But I note the weather was excellent.

Beijing?  I guess Maastricht is out. Anaheim (FWIW, I thought
that was an example of a terrible location, but many people
seemed happy with it)?  Hiroshima?  Stockholm?  San Francisco
(we thought the crime at Paris was bad, yet didn't complain
about being smack up against the Tenderloin)?  Or there's the
old standby, Minneapolis; perhaps we could do it in March.
The Dublin venue was panned by large numbers of people.
Philadelphia, people complained about expense.  Chicago, too
(combined with hotel renovations).

That gets us back through 2007.  Which of the venues do you
think we should return to, to which we already haven't
returned or planned to return?  And why?

For what it's worth, I would not complain about returning to
any of those venues; I personally had good meetings at all of
them except Hiroshima, which I missed due to other
commitments.  That includes both Maastricht and Dublin, which
were both apparently trials for large numbers of others.

Best,

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
ajs(_at_)anvilwalrusden(_dot_)com


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