RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
2012-08-06 10:03:01
My experience is no doubt biased by that one can get directly to most places,
including Vancouver the last time I went (not this year), from London, and I
can get to Heathrow in well under two hours.
--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris(_dot_)dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com<mailto:chris(_dot_)dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com>
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Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
[mailto:nurit(_dot_)sprecher(_at_)nsn(_dot_)com]
Sent: 06 August 2012 15:59
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Mary Barnes
Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
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To some people it may be "third if <they> stay a whole week"....but for others
not!
Going to Vancouver is definitely one the most expensive flights....and takes a
lot of time to get there....
Now that I have seen one saying it took him 27 hours to get back....I feel
lucky....it took me "only" 24 hours....I left Wednesday late evening and got
home Friday morning....
And no, even if I stayed two more nights....the cost of the flight was still
much higher than the price of the hotel...
- Nurit
From: ext Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
[mailto:Chris(_dot_)Dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com]
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 5:53 PM
To: Mary Barnes
Cc: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew
Sullivan; ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
Those prices still sound like a week's hotel costs would exceed them. And I
would expect the cost of your time to your employer to exceed even that. I'm
not suggesting airfare prices don't matter, not by any stretch of the
imagination, just that they are third if you stay a whole week. Or maybe
fourth, there's also the IETF charge to consider, but that's less flexible
(week or day) and not highly location dependent. Of course if you go for just a
day the airfare is quite likely to be number one on the list, unless the
location is relatively local.
--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris(_dot_)dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com<mailto:chris(_dot_)dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com>
| http://www.baesystems.com
BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre,
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
From: Mary Barnes [mailto:mary(_dot_)ietf(_dot_)barnes(_at_)gmail(_dot_)com]
Sent: 06 August 2012 15:42
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew
Sullivan; ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org<mailto:ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>
Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
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Flights to Vancouver from some cities were extremely expensive. It would have
cost me more than twice as much as it did to fly to Beijing, for example, if I
had taken a direct flight from DFW - it would have been by far my most
expensive IETF airfare ever. I didn't because I was trying to be cost
conscious. However, I could have flown to London in the same time it took me
to get to/from Vancouver and for about the same price. This is a typical
problem when we go somewhere when tourists go (for some reason, flying to
cities in Canada is very popular when the temp in Texas is 110 degrees F).
Orlando will most likely be just as bad since it is scheduled during a time
where many schools in DFW area have Spring Break - flight costs right now are
over $500 ($560). I can usually fly anywhere in the U.S. for around $300 when
I book early. And, of course, I can't book early as my company won't
re-imburse unless I use their travel company and have approval (which I won't
get for at least another 5-6 months). Hopefully, the IETF negotiated hotel
rate won't reflect that it is Spring Break.
If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best
choice IMHO. It's very reasonably priced, easy for many to get to and the
hotel has adequate space for us (even back when we had many more attendees).
Personally, the weather is not critical to me, since I spend the vast majority
of my time in the hotel meeting rooms, so I'm very happy if we meet there in
March and November.
Mary
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
<Chris(_dot_)Dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com<mailto:Chris(_dot_)Dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com>>
wrote:
I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the hotel
cost for a week. Caveats to that are that I have mostly gone for IETF
recommended hotels, so may have missed particularly cheap hotels, and that I
have only been to North American and Europe (but that statistic includes
Vancouver and the even further away western US cities down to San Diego). And
of course I fly economy, and it's much cheaper including a Saturday night in
your trip, even at the cost of an extra night in a hotel (at least it is from
here). An almost exception was Paris this year where I was staying fairly
cheaply, but that was a cost-shared trip between me and my employer, and I
didn't fly (I went by train - though that's not cheaper, just better). Paris
has cheap(er) hotels and a metro I understand, so I felt less location
constrained.
--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194<tel:%2B44%201245%20242194> | Fax: +44 1245
242124<tel:%2B44%201245%20242124>
chris(_dot_)dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com<mailto:chris(_dot_)dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com>
| http://www.baesystems.com
BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre,
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
[mailto:nurit(_dot_)sprecher(_at_)nsn(_dot_)com<mailto:nurit(_dot_)sprecher(_at_)nsn(_dot_)com>]
Sent: 06 August 2012 15:07
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan;
ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org<mailto:ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>
Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
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When you are not close (time), flight cost may become higher in the priority
(over hotem)....
Flying to Vancouver for me for example is the most expensive trip....even
though the city is amazing and the host was wonderful!
-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org<mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>
[mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org<mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>]
On Behalf Of ext Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:56 PM
To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan;
ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org<mailto:ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>
Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
Dublin's problem was that the venue was isolated from the city. This has also
been the case with e.g. San Diego. (I'm assuming no personal car.) Contrast
with Minneapolis (and several other places) where you were right in the city.
Being in a city is better for lunch and dinner options, taking a break to go to
a bookshop (or to buy something you forgot to bring) and so on. (I'm
deliberately not including tourism here.)
However at the moment my priorities to make being able to attend possible would
be time (so the closer to me the better - I realise that's impossible
globally), cost (hotel first, flight second, rest is noise) and the ability to
plan ahead to only attend part of the week. This is the current economic
reality. Dublin actually scores quite well on those for me.
--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194<tel:%2B44%201245%20242194> | Fax: +44 1245
242124<tel:%2B44%201245%20242124>
chris(_dot_)dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com<mailto:chris(_dot_)dearlove(_at_)baesystems(_dot_)com>
| http://www.baesystems.com
BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre,
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org<mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>
[mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org<mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>]
On Behalf Of Daniele Ceccarelli
Sent: 06 August 2012 13:24
To: Andrew Sullivan; ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org<mailto:ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>
Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
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Dublin panned? I thought it was one of the best venues and locations of the
last meetings.
What about Italy or Spain? I've never heard about an IETF in Italy. I'm ok with
meetings outside Italy since i like traveling very much, but i was wondering
why it has never been taken into account in the past meetings. Is it expensive?
I think Italy and Spain are much cheaper than France, UK or Sweden, aren't they?
BR
Daniele
-----Original Message-----
From:
ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org<mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>
[mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org<mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>]
On
Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
Sent: lunedì 6 agosto 2012 14.06
To: ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org<mailto:ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org>
Subject: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 11:58:19AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote:
enough merely to have excellent staff. We need to go back to the
better places and benefit from the learning curve. This
doesn't mean
"no new venues" but it means fewer.
As a practical matter, may I ask about which venues you want
to return to? I get your argument in principle, but it seems
to me that there has been quite a lot of complaining in the
past. The one factor that seems to me most likely to reduce
complaints -- weather -- is evidently beyond the Secretariat's
or IAOC's control.
People seem inclined to return to the Hyatt in Vancouver,
elevators notwithstanding. We're going to do that. (I don't
understand why the previous Vencouver venue was less desirable
-- to me, these venues were very similar, and not very far
apart. I note, however, that the previous two Vancouver
visits were near the end of the year, when it rains all the
time in Vancouver.)
People complained at length about the venue in Paris, so I
presume it's out.
Some people complained about the hotel room prices and travel
expense in Taipei, though I heard remarks that it was a good venue.
Should we try to return there?
People complained in advance about getting to Québec, although
afterwards I heard lots of good noises about that venue. I
note that the weather was great. Should we try to return?
I don't recall much complaining about the Prague venue in
2011, which was striking to me because very little seemed
different to me compared to our first visit there. Perhaps
this is evidence of the "tuning"
you suggest (ensuring the water bottles were plastic, for instance).
But I note the weather was excellent.
Beijing? I guess Maastricht is out. Anaheim (FWIW, I thought
that was an example of a terrible location, but many people
seemed happy with it)? Hiroshima? Stockholm? San Francisco
(we thought the crime at Paris was bad, yet didn't complain
about being smack up against the Tenderloin)? Or there's the
old standby, Minneapolis; perhaps we could do it in March.
The Dublin venue was panned by large numbers of people.
Philadelphia, people complained about expense. Chicago, too
(combined with hotel renovations).
That gets us back through 2007. Which of the venues do you
think we should return to, to which we already haven't
returned or planned to return? And why?
For what it's worth, I would not complain about returning to
any of those venues; I personally had good meetings at all of
them except Hiroshima, which I missed due to other
commitments. That includes both Maastricht and Dublin, which
were both apparently trials for large numbers of others.
Best,
A
--
Andrew Sullivan
ajs(_at_)anvilwalrusden(_dot_)com<mailto:ajs(_at_)anvilwalrusden(_dot_)com>
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- So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), (continued)
- So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Andrew Sullivan
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Daniele Ceccarelli
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Mary Barnes
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Mary Barnes
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon)
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity),
Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <=
- RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Richard Shockey
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Michael Richardson
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Geoff Mulligan
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Margaret Wasserman
- Re: So, where to repeat?, Sam Hartman
- Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity), Geoff Mulligan
- Re: So, where to repeat?, Simon Perreault
- Re: So, where to repeat?, Hector Santos
- Re: So, where to repeat?, Ole Jacobsen
- Re: So, where to repeat?, Michael Richardson
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