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Re: IESG Considering a Revision to NOTE WELL

2012-11-06 17:27:19
On 11/6/2012 1:47 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
Hi Russ,

On 11.6.2012 14:01 , "Russ Housley" <housley(_at_)vigilsec(_dot_)com> wrote:

This isnt complex - if there is a fraud here lets let the FTC deal with it. That is how to keep our hands clean.

So will the Chair ask the IETF Counsel to formally contact the FTC to ask them to review this matter. Then its in the FTC's lap and there is no issue for us to worry about.


Todd

Stephan:

Based on the number of late disclosures that are occurring, it is clear
to us that we need to use very plain language to explain the
responsibilities to participants.
That's an interesting statement.  To summarize the (long) message below, I
don't think that empirical data supports that there are any significant
numbers of disclosures of which it is likely that they are "late".

I went through the recent IPR disclosures (July 2012 until present) to
check against what documents they have been made.  In tabular form:
Draft-00: 13
Draft-01:  8
Draft-02:  7
Draft-03:  9
Draft-04 and later drafts: 14
Issued RFCs: 4
3rd party disclosures: 15

The 3rd party disclosures obviously are irrelevant here, as there is no
disclosure obligation for third party patent rights per BCP 79, and where
there is no obligation to disclose there cannot be a late disclosure.

Of the four disclosures made against issued RFCs, only one had a match
between an inventor's name and the RFC's author list.  That one is pledged
as RAND-Z.  It's undoubtedly late, but I guess that the rightholder
attempted to cure that lateness by offering advantageous licensing terms.
The other disclosures are RAND, but there is no indication that the
companies making the disclosure were contributing, at least not based on
matching inventor/author names (or my vague recollection of who said what
in meeting rooms at the time).   It can well be that the disclosures are
completely voluntarily, or that the disclosure requirement was triggered
just recently.  There are many examples on why this may have happened: one
of the authors joint the company in question just recently (which is the
case for one of the disclosures), or that the patent changed hands just
recently (which was the case in one of the Opus-related declarations that
looked, at the first glance, late, but clearly wasn't.)  I will also note
that one company that made a disclosure is not an IETF regular, and the
other has a comparatively small delegation for its size.  In conclusion, I
don't believe that any of the four cases have been shown to be late
disclosures, and my personal feeling is that it is highly likely that none
of them is.

As for the disclosures against older drafts (04+), they may or may not be
late.  A disclosure could be made against subject matter that has just
recently been included into a draft that already has some history.  A
disclosure obligation may have been triggered because a participant from a
given company, for the first time, decided to comment on the draft.  And
so on.  Based on the information I have, I could not conclude that there
is a single late disclosure, although I would consider it likely that
there are a few.

As for disclosures against drafts 00 through 03, I would argue that most,
if not all, of these disclosures are probably timely.  A year or so is not
an unreasonable time frame for a company to make a disclosure, considering
the amount of paperwork and coordination required to do so.  It's not only
that a company needs to determine, for itself, whether a disclosure is
required (draw up a claim chart, have it checked by legal, understand the
role of the participant, understand the--rather exotic--IETF patent policy
among the other dozens of policies of bodies the company may be involved
in), but the company has also to settle on the licensing terms they wish
to offer (which can involve standards people, legal, and business folks,
and in many cases requires multi-level approval).  I have run that process
for one of the larger IETF participating companies in the past, and
believe me, a year is not unrealistic, even after the
policy-understanding-and-advocating phase is behind that company.  As our
policy does NOT specify another timeframe, I don't think that an argument
to the contrary is bearing as much weight as the procedural argument made
here.

(Yes, when analyzing the drafts I have been sloppy in not distinguishing
between WG and individual drafts.  I don't think that would change the
picture significantly.)

So, to summarize, out of the 60 or so non-third-party disclosures that
have been made over the last 4+ months, only "a few" may or may not be
late; the rest almost certainly is not.

Also, I have not seen a trend going towards late disclosures.  Quite
contrary, I have seen a trend towards early disclosures.

I do not believe that, based on this data, there is a need to change the
Note Well.  If you folks still think a change is needed, then at least do
not make a change in such a way that the new Note Well does not correctly
interpret the policy we have.

The way to fix the "timeliness" of disclosures is to change BCP 79, by
adding a definition of timeliness, preferably a hard one (six months or
something like this).

Stephan





Russ


On Nov 6, 2012, at 1:27 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote:

Hi,
Russ, can you explain why the IESG considers it necessary to tinker with
the Note Well?
As for the substance, I don't like the text for two reasons that can be
found inline.
Stephan

On 11.6.2012 10:00 , "IETF Chair" <chair(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org> wrote:

The IESG is considering a revision to the NOTE WELL text.  Please
review
and comment.

Russ



=== Proposed Revised NOTE WELL Text ===

Note Well

This summary is only meant to point you in the right direction, and
doesn't have all the nuances. The IETF's IPR Policy is set forth in
BCP 79; please read it carefully.

The brief summary:
- By participating with the IETF, you agree to follow IETF processes.
- If you are aware that a contribution of yours (something you write,
   say, or discuss in any IETF context) is covered by patents or patent
   applications, you need to disclose that fact.
1) I'm not in favor of this formulation because it can be read to
impose a
stronger disclosure obligation on a participant than BCP 79.
Specifically, as Lars has already pointed out and according to BCP 79,
I'm
not "needed" to disclose a patent I'm reasonably and personally aware of
that reads on a document of mine, if that patent is assigned to someone
else but myself and my sponsor/employer, ... For good reasons, BCP 79
does
not require third party disclosures.  I hope that the (few) added words
can be accommodated.
2) On the other hand, the issue of timeliness is not covered at all (as
others have already pointed out.)

I'm especially worried of point 1, which can be seen as a policy change
through the back door.  If, based on this hypothetical Note Well, we
would
end up with an IETF disclosure culture in which third party disclosures
would become the norm rather than an exception, we could well end up
with
a brain drain especially from folks not quite as senior in their
respective company hierarchy to have the leeway to ignore company
guidance
about patents.


- You understand that meetings might be recorded, broadcast, and
  publicly archived.

For further information: Talk to a chair, ask an Area Director, or
review  BCP 9 (on the Internet Standards Process), BCP 25 (on the
Working Group processes), BCP 78 (on the IETF Trust), and BCP 79 (on
Intellectual Property Rights in the IETF).






--
Regards TSG
"Ex-Cruce-Leo"

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