Re: 6tsch BoF

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 2:34 AM, Ralph Droms 
<rdroms(_dot_)ietf(_at_)gmail(_dot_)com> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:14 AM 8/1/13, Andy Bierman 
> <andy(_at_)yumaworks(_dot_)com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Isn't it obvious why humming is flawed and raising hands works?
> > (Analog vs. digital).  A hand is either raised or it isn't.
> > The sum of all hands raised is comparable across tests.
> The repeatable test gives *an* answer, but is not necessarily the answer that 
> best reflects the sentiment of those answering the question.
>
> A relatively imprecise thermometer that gives a reading close to the measured 
> temperature is more useful than a digital thermometer that gives a precise 
> but highly inaccurate reading.
I disagree.  Whether I raise my hand to ear level, 2 inches above my head,
or as high as I can reach, the chair will still count my raised hand as "1".
If I hum really load (and if everybody hums at a different volume) the
chair cannot possibly know how to quantify that result.

Quantifying the number of raised hands is not a judgement call,


> - Ralph
Andy


> > The sum of the amplitude of all hums is not.
> >
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 1:50 AM, Ralph Droms 
> > <rdroms(_dot_)ietf(_at_)gmail(_dot_)com> wrote:
> > > I found the process in the 6tsch BoF (Tue 1520) for asking about taking on 
> > > the work discussed in the BoF to be thought-provoking.
> > >
> > > Toward the end of the BoF, the chairs asked the question "1. Is this a 
> > > topic that the IETF should address?"  First, the chairs asked for a hum.  
> > > From my vantage point (middle of the room), the hum was pretty close to 
> > > equal, for/against.  I reviewed the audio 
> > > (http://www.ietf.org/audio/ietf87/ietf87-bellevue-20130730-1520-pm2.mp3, 
> > > starting about 1:22), and heard a slightly louder hum "for".  The BoF 
> > > chairs decided they needed more information than they could extract from 
> > > the hum, so they asked for a show of hands.  From the audio record, there 
> > > were "a lot" for (which matches my recollection) and "a handful" against 
> > > (my memory is that no hands showed against).  There was a request to ask 
> > > for a show of hands for "how many don't know".  The question was asked, and 
> > > the record shows "a dozen".
> > >
> > > So, there was apparently a complete change in the answer to the question 
> > > based on humming versus voting.  There may also have been some effect from 
> > > asking, after the fact, for a show of hands for "don't know".
> > >
> > > I'm really curious about the results, which indicate that, at least in this 
> > > case, the response to the question is heavily dependent on the on the mode 
> > > used to obtain the answers to the question (which we all know is possible). 
> > >  In particular, the effect of humming versus show of hands was pretty 
> > > obvious.  draft-resnick-on-consensus gives several reasons why humming is 
> > > preferred over a show of hands.  From this example, it seems to me to be 
> > > worth considering whether a more honest and accurate result is obtained 
> > > through humming rather than a show of hands.
> > >
> > > The other question raised in my mind is why the initial result from the 
> > > hum, which did not have a consensus either way, was not sufficient.  
> > > "Roughly the same response" for/against the question would seem to me to be 
> > > as valid a result as explicit consensus one way or the other, and the act 
> > > of taking a show of hands to survey the appeared to treat the hum as 
> > > irrelevant, rather than highly significant.
> > >
> > > - Ralph