ietf
[Top] [All Lists]

Re: Anti-harassment policy and ombudsperson

2013-11-04 13:17:26

On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:36 AM, John C Klensin <john-ietf(_at_)jck(_dot_)com> 
wrote:



--On Monday, 04 November, 2013 09:16 -0800 Dave Crocker
<dhc(_at_)dcrocker(_dot_)net> wrote:

On 11/4/2013 8:18 AM, John C Klensin wrote:
It is clear that there is no
consensus about exactly what to do and it doesn't seem likely
that one will emerge.

FWIW, even though this was meant merely as part of some
example text, I've heard similar assertions offlist and want
to note that I believe this conclusion is premature.

There has been nothing even close to a serious attempt to
pursue IETF rough consensus on specific text for this polichy.

Worse, the deadline of this week that Jari cited a) was not
previously announced, and b) is entirely artificial.  While
pursuing this topic expeditiously seems reasonable, we've been
given no basis for deciding that it had to be in place by this
week.
...

I agree with most of this and claim that most of my comments
apply whether one assumes that we can reach consensus on text or
not.  Part of the difference in our perspectives/ assumptions is
that your note seems to assume that we are in agreement on
principles and merely need to agree on text.   I believe that,
if we did agree on principles, it is reasonably likely that we
could reach rough consensus on text.

I don't think we are there yet.  In particular, I've seen no
convergence about whether it is appropriate to discuss sanction
and what such sanctions might be.

The IESG statement includes what seems like the logical terminus of that. 
namely exclusion of a participant from IETF activites.

We have some experience with actions like this associated with mailing list 
disruption, that form of disruptive behavior is dealt with 3683 actions.

It seems entirely inappropriate to process harassment complaints through a 
public process, to avoid reputional damage to either the accuser or the 
accused, public retaliation, or engagement in fighting these things out via 
public opinion which is damaging to everyone inlcuding the IETF.

  I've seen no convergence
about whether an ombudsperson model is viable and, if it is,
whether there is a practical "training" model for folks within
the community and a reasonable model for how such people might
be appointed.  

The domain skillset is outside that of the internet standards process. 
Historically such people are drawn from outside the community they serve. I 
imagine that domain specific training would originate outside the IETF.

  In each case, objections or concerns that seem
sensible have been raised about the direction in which the IESGs
appears to be headed.


YMMD about those concerns (and others), but I suggest that there
is at least a reasonable hypothesis that we are nowhere near the
point at which there is enough agreement about principles to
make agreement about text particularly meaningful.

On the on the contrary, I think it’s reasonable to expect the interim 
ombudsperson’s contact information and the communication channel is important 
as useful as is the the IESG statement however much refinement may be required 
to have something that we can live iwth long-term.


   john



Attachment: signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail