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Re: [ietf-dkim] I-D Action:draft-ietf-dkim-rfc4871bis-06.txt // Input requirements

2011-04-25 17:09:36

Michael Deutschmann wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Hector Santos wrote:

However, I suspect you're getting at the fact that, if it had to be
written today, such a certification standard would be hamstrung by the
fact that ADSP sucks.

Almost... see below.

All it could do is make dkim=discardable *binding*.  Since a bank that
wants the freedom to have their employees speak ex-cathedra on ordinary
mailing lists cannot use discardable, they would not be able to take
advantage of the phishing protection.

Its hard for me to imagine a bank's company DKIM email policy for 
employees will be not different than a Bank's vendor/user DKIM TOS 
(Terms of Service) requirement agreement.  So a bank who might begin 
to be concern about securing new vendor/user eBank communications (for 
PCI reasons) will probably begin to use different domains.

Obviously then, writing an improved ADSP-alike protocol is higher
priority than writing the certification standard.

Overall, I believe it all falls under some form of policy whether its 
an author domain policy or signer domain policy, even trust, 
certification or reputation policies.

So even when bank has a DKIM TOS requirement for bank/users 
transactions, the user host domain will need to be aware of the bank's 
DKIM TOS policy whether its ADSP-like and/or TRUST (rfc4871bis) based. 
  There has to be some form of prior end to end knowledge.

I can provide a perfect real life example of how email or user access 
evolved altering many features in a mail hosting system.

There are two forms of MUAs; online and offline.

Most systems started with online only and they came with strong 
message controls, for example, Message marked Read/Received and the 
ability to snoop or preview a message was a privilege feature for 
operators.

When offline MUAs became more important, now you had the roaming user 
design problems where the user working from home or work needed the 
ability to pick up mail from both machines and that required a "snoop" 
idea - not marking the mail received.  If the mail was marked received 
when he popped in from work, he would not be able to download the same 
mail from home.

Offering that feature for the growing offline MUAs became a problem 
for subscription services because now the hosting operators lost the 
ability to trace important mail receptions, such as Expiration 
Warnings, Service Notifications, etc.  Out of the box, our system has 
a 30, 15, 7 day Expiration Warning with billing details and if the 
user was able to "snoop" at these messages, they can claim they never 
got the warning.

So new tracking methods were needed to offers users to ability to 
preview mail, yet track reception needs for the backend.

For technology that attempts to time-shifted offline communications, 
the goal is to offer the same online access/security profiling 
requirements in an offline fashion.

How this applies to DKIM?

For the bank or anyone for that matter, if they only focus on online 
activity, the offline MUA needs are less important.  Mail is not 
accessible for POP3, NNTP.  You have to go online.  If it offered an 
IMAP or some Exchange Proxy (Outlook Exchange for Microsoft, Wildcat! 
Exchange for us), they begin to offer the same Online Experience in an 
offline fashion.

But when it comes to email via store and forward, like POP3 and SMTP, 
that offline emulation of online requirements become much harder.  For 
DKIM, the pressure is higher to make sure the backend (MSA, MDA) to do 
the security filtering and if you do this in a single source manner, 
then you satisfy both online and offline needs.  This is a good 
example where Authentication-Results header is only fully trusted at 
the backend only.

However, if we are trying to push these controls to the Offline MUA, 
without having control of the MUA products designs, its becomes much 
harder.

I can see that problem very clearly with my AT&T "Your Online Billing 
is Available" email notifications.  They have promoting increasingly 
users to go online and for those popping in, they send these monthly 
unsigned emails with html links. I don't trust them so I ignore them.

But every month I do view the message source to see if there are any 
DKIM signatures.  I believe there was a period there was some DKIM 
signature, but it stopped.  Looking at these headers with the body 
content, you can clearly see, whether it was by design or the symptom 
of young engineers only dealing with html and online access, the 
intent is online access to secure the communication with the users 
which would not added to their spam box.

I think a piece of the problems in the WG is that are trying to design 
for RFC-based MUAs in mixed ways, when in practice, the direction is 
going back to online access (i.e. smaller mobile devices now taken for 
granted in this new generation).

You also have new centralization and cloud designs with Apple, Google 
and Windows the principles in these proprietary networks and there is 
a movement for an trusted identity egosystem (see NSTIC - National 
Strategic for Trust in CyberSpace).  This might even help DKIM with 
certification, but I still see it needing to reconsidered author 
identities again :)

So my view has always been that you need to secure online first, then 
try to emulate the offline RFC rendering as much as possible without 
compromising on the security.

-- 
HLS


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