Re: FW: Why?
2005-03-14 08:42:29
inline.
Tony Hain wrote:
Joel M. Halpern wrote:
This discussion seems to take as a premise the view that if we define
applications only on IPv6, even though they could be defined on IPv4, that
this will give people a reason to use IPv6.
It also seems to take as a premise that if we don't define ways to work
around NATs, people won't use the applications with NATs.
I suffer from no such disillusions as those are not the premise for the
initial note, though without having the background in the original note it
is easy to see why someone might come to that conclusion.
My assumption is that the market will not ignore the opportunity to develop
NAT traversal technologies. That does not equate to a need for the IETF to
waste valuable resources standardizing hacks that attempt to mask previous
hacks. In particular the IAB needs to be looking forward and helping the
application community understand that there are approaches today that allow
them to ignore the nonsense that has grown in the network by using IPv6
tunneling as a NAT traversal tool. This approach completely avoids the need
for complex and error prone ALGs.
I agree that ALGs are not the answer, and I believe the reasons for that
are treated in:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-nat-traversal-considerations-00.txt
As I mentioned during the plenary, the document above makes a case that
the right answer in many situations are vpn-ish technologies that
include v6 tunnels. However, different applications have different
needs, and there are real differences between the various vpn-ish
solutions (TURN, STUN, teredo, etc.) that are driving their development
and adoption. For VoIP, where the nat traversal issue has been
especially painful, the increase in voice latency, packet loss, and
substantial cost increase of relaying traffic through the tunnel
servers, has driven people to solutions like STUN. Thus, I cannot agree
that there only needs to be a single solution here.
That said, I agree that the IAB nat traversal consideration document
lacks adequate consideration of how evolution plays into this, and I'll
endeavor to improve the document on that front.
Another concern I have is that, in an IPv6-only world, even if you
eliminate NAT, there will still be firewalls, and those firewalls will
frequently have the property that they block traffic coming from the
outside to a particular IP/port on the inside unless an outbound packet
has been generated from the inside from that IP/port. This means that IP
addresses are not globally reachable. You'd still need most of the same
solutions we have on the table today to deal with this problem. Indeed,
in the VoIP space, I believe you'd need pretty much everything,
excepting you'd be able to remove a single attribute from a few of the
protocols (STUN and TURN in particular), which tell the endpoint its
address on the other side of the NAT. The endpoint knows its address,
but all of the protocol machinery is still needed to rendezvous with the
other participant in the call.
-Jonathan R.
--
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza
Director, Service Provider VoIP Architecture Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711
Cisco Systems
jdrosen(_at_)cisco(_dot_)com FAX: (973) 952-5050
http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000
http://www.cisco.com
_______________________________________________
Ietf mailing list
Ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
<Prev in Thread] |
Current Thread |
[Next in Thread>
|
- FW: Why?, Tony Hain
- Re: FW: Why?, Erik Nordmark
- Re: FW: Why?, JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: FW: Why?, Tim Chown
- RE: FW: Why?, Tony Hain
- Re: FW: Why?,
Jonathan Rosenberg <=
- Re:Why?, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: FW: Why?, Tony Hain
- Re: FW: Why?, Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Why?, Keith Moore
- Re:Why?, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Why?, Melinda Shore
- Re: Why?, Keith Moore
- Re: FW: Why?, Melinda Shore
- Re: Why?, Keith Moore
Re: FW: Why?, Joe Touch
|
|
|