The IETF cannot accept the statements of known, court-proven liars, nor
can it suppress this fact in its deliberations. If the IETF accepts
court-proven and documented liars as reliable sources of fact, then it
will have no more credibility in its statements, as they will be based on
lies, not on truth.
My statement was not an ad hominem, but a statement of fact.
This is an ad hominem:
http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg30606.html
In it, Paul Vixie calls my company by a derogatory name. It is a personal
attack. [No objection to that (and others), I note.]
Black's law dictionary defines Ad hominem as "To the person. A term used
in logic with reference to a personal argument."
The key here is "logic". An ad hominem is a fallacy: Even if the person is
X (whatever), that does make not their argument invalid. To have an ad
hominem, one have to refer personally to someone they are arguing with, as
Paul Vixie did in the reference above.
If a person really is a Jerk, their statements might still be true. Their
being a Jerk, doesn't make them wrong.
The one and only exception is if "X" is "liar". If a person really is a
liar, then their statements probably are not true, and cannot be accepted.
However, this is a serious charge, and needs proof.
In this case, we have irrefutable in the form of multiple court decisions
which declared their associates to be liars, having defamed people on the
subject of open relays. Our question is open relays, and their current
statements are about open relays.
A fact, well established, that anti-spammers engage in lies about open
relays is certainly relevant to the question of whether the SpamOps
assertions about open relays are based in true facts or in lies. Mr.
Royer quotes the opinions of associates of known COURT-PROVEN liars to
support his arguments. One person he quotes is well documented to have
perpetrated similar false statements against people (myself) who revealed
the lies of the court-proven liar. The fact of their previous lack of
honesty on the subject is relevant to the truth of their assertions.
--Dean
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
**** is a documented liar, and ****'s associate ****
(formerly of ****) has been proven in court to be a liar on 3 separate
court cases. And ****'s only regret in those cases is that he told the
court the truth when asked if he had subscribers. **** was shut for
contempt of court when **** published his blacklist instead of complying
with a court order to remove false entries. You should review
http://www.****.org, although it is not complete.
This sort of assertion really has no place on an IETF list, regardless
of whether it's true. It's as ad hominem as you can get, and that
isn't how we debate here. Facts yes, people no.
Thanks
Brian
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