Brian,
Yours is sort of a general reply to a question which has
very specific relevance in this case.
Yes, the current process allows for getting around a few
nay-sayers.
However, the text objected to in this case argues that
this process should be extended by a process of counting the
people who don't publicly participate in the discussion, either
way, as having tacitly given their approval to whatever side of
the argument the authors, the WG chairs or the IESG choose.
If we suppose that this might be the ongoing model for
determining consensus, it will never be necessary for anyone
other than the authors, WG chairs and IESG to agree on some
choice to declare consensus - even if the proposal is the most
ghastly nonsense to ever see the light of day - since it will
always be the case that the majority of people lurking on the
mailing list will not actively participate in list discussion.
The text argues for this extreme interpretation of the
current process - where the proponents of an idea consist almost
entirely of its authors, and they need only get the IESG behind
it to make it happen. I've seen this done once before, where a
WG chair and AD jointly declared consensus against a continuous
stream of objections. It wasn't pretty then, and it wouldn't be
pretty now.
--
Eric
--> -----Original Message-----
--> From: ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
[mailto:ietf-bounces(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org]
--> On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter
--> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 11:02 AM
--> To: Jeffrey Hutzelman
--> Cc: ietf(_at_)ietf(_dot_)org
--> Subject: Re: objection to proposed change to "consensus"
-->
--> Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote:
--> >
--> >
--> > On Monday, January 02, 2006 09:56:15 PM -0800 Randy Presuhn
--> > <randy_presuhn(_at_)mindspring(_dot_)com> wrote:
--> >
--> >> Hi -
--> >>
--> >> In
--> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-alt-formats-00.txt
--> >> section 3 says:
--> >>
--> >> | Furthermore, the authors propose that the IESG
--> carefully consider
--> >> | declaring consensus in support of the change even if
--> a large number
--> >> | of 'nays' are posted to the IESG discussion list.
--> >>
--> >> I object to this text, as it might (mis)lead the reader
--> into thinking
--> >> that the methods for declaring consensus were being modified,
--> >> particularly
--> >> if this document somehow became a BCP. To deal with
--> this issue, I
--> >> suggest
--> >> the removal of the following material from section 3:
--> >
--> >
--> > Agree. If the authors actually wish to propose a change
--> to the way
--> > consensus is determined in the IETF, then they should do so in a
--> > separate document. Naturally, like any process change in any
--> > organization, such a change would have to be made under
--> the _existing_
--> > process before it could take effect.
-->
--> Speaking for myself, I agree. The whole point of rough
--> consensus is to
--> leave scope for some nay-sayers, but it's for the WG Chairs
--> (if relevant)
--> and the IESG to judge whether the number of objections is
--> significant.
--> That's not going to change any time soon, and certainly not
--> as a side effect.
-->
--> Brian
-->
-->
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