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Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt> (IANA Reserved IPv4 Prefix for Shared Address Space) to BCP

2012-02-10 21:52:18
Thanks for your response, mine is below, with snipping.

On 02/10/2012 19:19, Pete Resnick wrote:
On 2/10/12 3:57 PM, Doug Barton wrote:

On 02/10/2012 15:42, Pete Resnick wrote:
  
I expect there will be clarifications as per the earlier messages in
this thread: This is *not* to be used as additional 1918 space.
     
The following is not meant to be a snark

Not taken as such.

...I think it's a huge problem
that you think *saying* "Don't use this as 1918 space" is going to make
any difference at all.
   

Neither the text of the current draft nor the proposed text that Brian
and I seem to like says "Don't use this as 1918 space", nor do I think
saying so would be a good idea or make any difference. I apologize that
I was not clear when I said that it "is *not* to be used as 1918 space".
What I meant was that the document should be clear that this so-called
"Shared Address Space" has limitations and can't be used in
circumstances where 1918 addresses can be used.

I'm sorry, I was trying to be concise in order to not re-open the debate
on the topic of "should," but your response indicates that you're not
seeing my point.

The premise of this draft is that a new block is necessary because the
same prefixes can't be used in the customer network and the CGN layer.
So, let's allocate a new block to use *only* in the CGN layer. That way
it can never conflict.

My point is that no matter how loudly you say, "Don't use this as 1918
space!" some users will do it anyway. There have already been several
requests for more IPv4 1918 space because a non-zero number of end user
networks have run out. So we know that people *will* use this new block
internally. Therefore we can be fairly certain that at some point there
will be a conflict. That means that there is no reason to allocate this
new block.

But if new folks start
using Shared Address Space without NATing it properly, they've only got
themselves to blame.

That's interesting ... so you're saying that the people who created the
problem should be responsible for dealing with their own mess? :) More
seriously, you seem to be saying that because the draft says "Don't do
it" it's Ok for us to do the allocation because if someone does screw up
it's not our fault because we told them not to do it. My point is that
because we can see the trap, we shouldn't walk right into it with a
smile on our face.

If the text is not clear, please help.

I don't think any amount of text-twiddling can help, since I feel that
this is a bad idea from the ground up.

I believe this has been said multiple times before (and is not the
subject of this Last Call, AFAICT), but: The new block is necessary
because current equipment, which will be connected to CGNs (or any other
kinds of devices that use this new space), and which conforms to a
reasonable interpretation of 1918, is not able to understand the same
block on the inside and the outside, and therefore will not be able to
route through CGNs (or other such new equipment) if they used 1918
space.

Yes, that's been *said* multiple times, but it hasn't been backed up
with solid data. OTOH, numerous people (many of whom are in a much
better position to know than I am) have pointed out that the
overwhelming majority of consumer CPE devices use one of 192.168.[01] as
their internal networks. That number is likely to be in the 80% range,
if not much higher. Therefore it's very likely that most of this problem
is solved already if the ISPs simply stay away from those 2 ranges.

What I, and others, have said repeatedly now is that given how easy most
of this problem is to solve, the people who have a fiduciary interest in
solving the rest of it should do so, without asking the rest of the
Internet to subsidize their (arguably flawed) business model.

Or put more simply, if the problem is that CPEs don't know how to deal
with the same block on the inside and outside, there are (at least) 2
ways for the ISPs to solve that which do not involve allocating a new
block.

Again, if the current text is not clear on this point, please
identify where clarification is needed. (If you disagree with my
assessment, let's please take that conversation offlist and we can
figure out where the disagreement is and maybe bring our collective
wisdom back to the list. 

I appreciate the invitation, but I don't know how much more I can bring
to the topic that I haven't already.


Doug

-- 

        It's always a long day; 86400 doesn't fit into a short.

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