On 07/02/2016 13:21, Michael StJohns wrote:
On 2/6/2016 5:16 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
On Sat, Feb 06, 2016 at 11:25:29AM -0500, Michael StJohns wrote:
For the options above, I'm actually leaning towards either no IAB appointees
or one IAB member appointee. Basically, its no longer clear why the IAB
should be selecting two members of the IAOC.
I think the "selecting two members" is a bit of a red herring here.
One of those members is required to be an IAB member; at the moment,
it's the chair.
Are you saying that the IAB does not select the IAB chair? The IAB selects
two members. You could also logically say that the
IAB chair is selected as a result of he/she being selected as an IAOC member.
In contrast, the IESG selects only one member. The IETF chair, also an
ex-officio member, gets selected by the Nomcom. The
IESG does get to confirm the other two IAOC members selected by the Nomcom.
I think the numbers are correct here - the IAB selects two members.
I think this is a reasonable thing to do
What is a reasonable thing to do? Select two members? Or select one IAB
member not the chair to serve on the IAOC?
because the
IAB is in many ways the foreign office of the IETF, and that
inevitably entails interactions that might have administrative
consequences. The RFC Editor function and the IANA function are two
obvious examples, though basically anything that might entail
expenditures and over which the IAB has oversight falls into this
category. I think we shouldn't forget that in this discussion. I
won't speak for the other authors, but this is at least why I was only
focussing on one narrow issue: who from the IAB ought to be on the
IAOC? Today it's the chair, and all the proposal is intended to do, I
think, is to alter that so that it might be the chair and it might be
someone else, depending on the circumstances.
As I pointed out, under the current rules, if you want another IAB member
(other than the chair) to serve on the IAOC you need
only appoint an IAB member with your current second choice. I would expect
that the IAOC might prefer that you as chair attend
most meetings, but would be happy to have an IAB member watching the store
for the chair.
The draft does not discuss the term of the IAB member on the IAOC. What
happens if you appoint someone with only 6 months left on their IAB term?
Given that IAB terms all end at the same time, the "only 6 months"
case is identical regardless of whether it's the chair or someone
else. So I don't understand the concern here.
Ummm... are we talking about the same IAB? There are 12 members of the IAB,
6 of which terms end this coming IETF meeting and 6
the third meeting after that. So say you appoint Mary Barnes to your
"replacement for the chair" slot effective today?
Can the IAB replace the person at any time?
Under the current rules, the answer is yes. That is, the IAB chair
can be removed at any time by the IAB, so the IAOC member could be
too. We should add that.
We should NOT add that. This is what I meant about stability. As of right
now to the best of my knowledge, you as IAB chair
have the least stable term of anyone on the IAOC. If you want to get off and
put someone else on, then we should probably make
sure that the new persons term is no less stable. And while its true that
the IAB chair position can change at any time, I
believe (I'm to tired right now to confirm this) the IAB's own documents
generally restrict that to a single election
immediately after the new class takes its position each year.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2850#section-3.1
It isn't specified but in practice it is at the First IETF of the year.
However, the IAB can
fire its chair at any time (and we didn't bother to spell out partial-term
arrangements,
assuming that common sense would prevail).
Brian
So the term does tend to be at least a year. And effectively,
there are few IAB chairs who have served less than two or three years, so I'm
less concerned about any given IAB chair swapping
off the IAOC in less than a year or even two.
Yup. Add it to the draft. I would also say that you can't appoint someone
to the IAOC who has less than a year left on the IAB.
There's no such restriction today (the chair can be any member of the
IAB). So why change that?
See above. Effectively, the chair position tends to be multi-year stable.
How is "not an IAB stream" document obvious except through these
discussions?
Apologies, then. I guess I figured that, since this obviously had to
update BCP 101, it was also obvious it couldn't be IAB stream.
Speaking for myself, I confess I was surprised this attracted the
notice it did. We thought to upload it so that the IAB could look at
it before drawing community attention to it, so it's possible that not
all the details were as mature as one might like. That is, however,
why we have the ease of publication in the I-D repository.
I'm actually quite surprised that you didn't have a chat with the IAOC and
bring them in on the discussion before throwing
things out as an ID....
See my comments above. If you're going to open up the question of "who", I
think that the question of "how many" is also relevant.
I really think these are separate issues, because of the IAB
responsibilities for some of the stuff the IAOC and IAD have to
provide. I'm perfectly prepared to have a separate discussion of
whether the IAB ought to be appointing someone who need not be an IAB
member, but I'd like to keep those issues separated.
Why? If we're going to change the basis on which the IAB is represented on
the IAOC, we should evaluate ALL the relationships
between the IAOC and the IAB at once as they probably interact.
Hmm... apples and oranges. The section you quoted applies to the
non-ex-officio members.
Yes, and it's the only discussion of such selection criteria at all.
Yet the very same reasoning doesn't apply in this case?
Not really. As Scott noted in his most recent email, there's a power of
position related to the IAB and IESG and ISOC board
chair positions that pretty much outweighs (or moots is probably a better
word) such selection criteria.
I understand that you want to do something that provides you (in your
persona as IAB chair) an immediate benefit by reducing your
responsibilities.
I don't think it does really provide an immediate benefit, or even a
long term one. I suppose it might reduce a phone call or trip or two,
but that stuff is now already budgetted for me; and my employer is
anyway unlikely to fund my participation long enough for this change
to take effect, so it probably won't help me personally at all.
Fair point. But I think you have at least another year on the IAB you've
committed to AIRC? If we all agreed upon this it
could be done quickly.
I'm asking "what's in it for the rest of us?" What is the benefit
to the IETF for making the change?
I think the benefit is exactly as I've already suggested. It would
reduce somewhat the things an IAB chair needs to do, thereby possibly
increasing the number of candidates and therefore possibly helping IAB
(and thereby IETF) diversity. It would also reduce the centrality of
the one person who happens to be IAB chair in a given year; this I
regard as much more important, because it gets us away from any hint
of a "presidents and kings" model.
I kind of doubt the deletion of IAOC duties from the IAB chair's plate is
going to make that job more attractive due to less
work. It might make it more attractive due to not being on the IAOC - which
is at its core a hard and pretty much thankless
job. And taking you/chair off the IAOC is not really going to do much to
"reduce the centrality" of the IAB chair.
But that's really not a benefit "for the rest of us" per se.
Later, Mike
Best regards,
A