Re: [Recentattendees] Background on Singapore go/no go for IETF 100

Apologies. I hit the "send" button a little early.

On May 26, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Barry Raveendran Greene 
<bgreene(_at_)senki(_dot_)org> wrote:
> If this is being used as the justification, then South Korea must also be 
> changed. Same problem.
It's not just South Korea, where we met in 2004 and plan to meet in November.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/21/12-states-ban-sodomy-a-decade-after-court-ruling/7981025/
 indicates that 12 states have anti-sodomy laws on the books, including 
Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Michigan, Mississippi, North 
Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas and Utah.

We have met three times in Texas, three times in Florida, and once in Utah. We 
have had no incident that I became aware of.

https://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/ states that 
homosexuality is illegal in 78 countries. On the included map, one that gives 
me concern is India, where we have quite a few folks that would like us to have 
a meeting. South Korea isn't on the map, so I'll guess that the listing isn't 
exhaustive.

What turning down Singapore on this basis does is say that we will not have 
meetings in those places until the laws are repealed.

In Illinois, a state law requires that a man's unmarried female companion shall 
call him "master" while out on a date, or so says 
http://tjshome.com/dumblaws.php. In Youngstown Ohio, you may not run out of gas.

Now, I'm very much in favor of getting dumb or outdated laws, laws that aren't 
being enforced, off the books. In fact, I would favor some kind of project that 
identified laws on the books throughout my nation that have not been enforced 
in some useful period (the past ten years?) and summarily dismiss them. That's 
unlikely to happen, and I don't think 78 countries and 12 states (whose laws 
have already been gutted by a Supreme Court ruling but remain on the books) are 
likely to repeal those laws soon. If it is going to happen, the IETF is not the 
organization that will drive that, or an appropriate place to have that 
discussion.

I am of the perspective that if a country is not enforcing a law, whether it be 
a sodomy law or that a man's date must call him "master", it's not a law I, or 
the IETF, needs to worry about. The data we have says that the last time 
Singapore used its homosexuality law was 1999, and that homosexuals living in 
Singapore, although they actively want the laws off the books, experience no 
issue.

Which doesn't say that Ted is wrong, but it says that his information is dated.

There are a number of places we don't go because of what we consider basic 
human rights violations that are very real.

We have periodic suggestions that we meet in Kuala Lumpur, because APNIC meets 
there. I have been to KL, in 1996 for INET; it's a great city. Malaysia not 
only doesn't allow gay, it won't allow anyone carrying an Israeli passport. 
Take a good look at Stanislav Shalunov or Glen Zorn; a Malaysian border officer 
is authorized to refuse entry to any person he or she deems "scruffy". Define 
"scruffy"?

We are being frequently asked to hold a meeting in Africa. Look at the red part 
of Africa in https://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/, 
or the list of countries in which it gets the death penalty in 
https://76crimes.com/10-nations-where-the-penalty-for-gay-sex-is-death/. Where 
would we actually hold that meeting?

If we can't go to Singapore, I don't see how we go back to Texas, Utah, 
Florida, important parts of Africa, or the Arab world. And, oh yes, much of 
Eastern Asia. To me, that's the crux of the issue. I respect Ted, Melinda, and 
the many others that are LGBT and working in the IETF. However, the issue has, 
in my opinion, become far more political/emotional than fact-based. I'd like us 
to make sure we have the right guidelines in venue selection that focus on 
having successful meetings, and remote participation capabilities that will 
enable someone that chooses to attend that way to do so productively.

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