spf-discuss
[Top] [All Lists]

Report from the MAAWG conference (was: Going to the MAAWG conference)

2005-06-26 20:43:17
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi all.

I have visited the MAAWG[1] fourth general meeting[2] in Düsseldorf, 
Germany, in the past week.  I had been invited by MAAWG to represent the 
SPF project there.  Meng and Shevek were there, too.

Having Fun (Monday)
- -------------------

I arrived on Monday, one day before the conference's official start.  In 
the evening, I met with Meng and Shevek, and we were soon joined by a few 
other visitors of the conference.  We had some drinks and talked about all 
kinds of things.  We were having some fun driving around with Meng's 
segway in the hotel lobby, too. ;-)

SPF/Sender-ID Interoperability (Tuesday Morning)
- ------------------------------------------------

The first thing on Tuesday was the "SPF/Sender-ID interoperability" BoF 
session.  Andy Newton introduced me to the crowd and I explained the 
SPF/S-ID interoperability problem, i.e. that there were nearly a million 
of v=spf1 records already out there, and that Microsoft was trying to make 
use of that.  I explained that their PRA algorithm did not yield results 
perfectly compatible to the MAIL FROM, because a lot of deployed software 
did not set the header identities as expected by PRA, and that a 
non-trivial amount of false negatives would arise from that.

Interestingly, no one from Microsoft was there.  Doug Otis was there, 
though, and raised a lot of general objections to SPF, some of which was 
really off-topic for the BoF.  His main on-topic point was that nobody 
outside the inner circles of the SPF project would care about the 
incompatibility caused by S-ID's reuse of v=spf1, and that the v=spf1 
record type was effectively burned and beyond rescue.  He said that the 
world wanted to see a constructive solution to the problem, to which I and 
everyone else agreed.  However, I objected to the idea that the 
incompatibility problems would go away if we just stopped advocating the 
publication of v=spf1, which apparently was what Doug wanted us to do.

Doug also tried to suggest that the project was fighting a battle against 
Microsoft that it couldn't win against their superior market force, but I 
insisted that we weren't actually trying to gain a big market share by 
fighting MS, but that we wanted to produce a technically sound standard 
that actually worked instead and that we were expecting to draw our 
followers through that.

Doug insisted on v=spf1 being scorched territory and that there were 
verious implications of publishing v=spf1 in general.  To that I responded 
that we were aware of those implications and that it was in the project's 
full intent to educate publishers about them.  I noted that in contrast, 
MS wasn't actually taking steps to educate owners of existing v=spf1 
records about the implications of not reviewing their policies and not 
publishing updated spf2.0 records.

I also noted that I didn't believe that MS actually was in a position to 
dictate Sender-ID and the patent-encumbered PRA onto the e-mail world.  To 
that, some didn't agree, in particular Doug and Meng.  Someone said that a 
lot of MTA vendors had already announced finished or upcoming support for 
Sender-ID, but it was quickly pointed out that a large portion of that 
alleged S-ID support was probably really just support for SPF AKA v=spf1.

After it became clear that there was little chance to convince the SPF 
project of making some sort of peace agreement with Microsoft to resolve 
the contention about the checking of the PRA against plain v=spf1 records, 
the discussion actually went constructive:

Throughout the BoF, I had explained multiple times that, although there 
were some people in the SPF project's community who had fundamental 
objections to having anything to do with MS, the project as a whole was 
not against working out a standard in cooperation with MS, provided that 
v=spf1 records were left alone, but that MS had never really shown the 
desire to directly discuss the issue with the project.

Then Andy suggested that perhaps the MAAWG could play an arbitrating role 
in achieving an amicable agreement between the SPF project and MS to 
commonly agree on and promote a new, post-v=spf1 record format that would 
be feature-compatible to both SPF and S-ID.  I responded that I could very 
well see this as a possible solution, even if that format would support 
the PRA -- as long as MS stopped to re-use v=spf1 for non-RFC2821 
identities.  Going from my view that domain owners would be advised to 
always publish policies at least for the MAIL FROM scope, and that MTA 
makers could always choose to simply ignore the patented PRA algorithm and 
only check the MAIL FROM (like with v=spf1), I offered to incite 
discussion about this within the project.  (I'm going to expand on it in a 
separate mail soon.)

After the BoF, Doug Otis came to me and tried to convince me that neither 
SPF nor Sender-ID (but only DomainKeys & co.) could be considered sender 
authentication methods, and that no reputation whatsoever could be based 
on the results of SPF/S-ID checks.  I objected (search the spf-discuss 
archives for why I think that there's no fundamental difference between 
authenticating a "domain" entity through authorization of sending MTAs and 
authenticating a "person" entity through the verification of some secret 
information), but it was kind of difficult to get Doug listen to anything 
I said.

Hacking Mail::SPF::Query (Tuesday Afternoon)
- --------------------------------------------

In the afternoon, Shevek and I chose to sit down in a quiet corner and 
design a new API for a new incarnation of Mail::SPF::Query (the Perl-based 
reference implementation), which would also be used for an XS wrapper for 
libspf2 and for a number of other SPF implementations (for instance, 
Shevek said he planned to write one in Java, too).

Then we pulled out our laptops and Shevek set up a temporary Subversion 
repo so we could start hacking on the new M:S:Q (which will be called 
Mail::SPF, by the way) right away.  Suffering from the Hilton's extra- 
ordinarily bad WLAN connectivity, we hacked for a few hours and found a 
number of vaguenesses and ambiguities in the draft-schlitt-spf-classic-02 
specification, most notably the IPv4/IPv6 address handling (I'm going to 
expand on that, too, later).

We got large parts of Mail::SPF working already, and Shevek promised to 
move the code to a permanent Subversion repo after the conference so we 
would be able to continue hacking on it then.

In the evening, the entire conference crowd got out for dinner, and I had 
another verbose chat with Doug Otis.  I guess he tried to probe me for how 
well I was able to argue on the various problems of SPF in order to 
prepare for his (and my) appearance on the sender authentication panel 
that was planned for Wednesday.  In particular, he was very determined 
that SPF was a great tool for DoS attacks due to its programmability for 
extensive DNS querying, however his arguments were mostly based on worst- 
case scenarios and unflexible (i.e. unintelligent) behavior of the DoS 
target.

The Sender Authentication Panel (Wednesday)
- -------------------------------------------

I spent most of Wednesday preparing my slides[3] for the sender 
authentication panel.  Originally, Craig Spiezle from Microsoft had been 
invited to speak at the panel, too, but he had canceled his appearance in 
advance, seemingly for personal reasons.  With me on the stage sat Meng, 
Doug Otis for Trend Micro, J.D. Falk for Yahoo, Ashok Ramaswaml for CISCO, 
and David Mayne for Earthlink.  Tripp Cox introduced us and moderated the 
panel.

I presented SPF and some aspects about its deployment, such as potential 
problems, deployment recommendations, and details about the adoption.  
(See my slides[3] in PPT or PDF format.)  I exceeded my 10min timeslot by 
about 5min, and Tripp Cox got a bit nervous about it, but I think it was 
OK since the largest part of the remaining time was spent by the others 
telling about DomainKeys, IIM, DomainKeys/IIM, DomainKeys deployment 
experiences, DomainKeys implementation details, etc. pp., and of course by 
Doug Otis more or less explicitly ranting about SPF.

A 10-15min Q&A round was planned subsequent to the presentations, but since 
the panel had gotten started late and also my presentation had taken a bit 
longer than expected, the Q&A round was not performed.

Finally, the panel ended and while the others headed for the evening's 
reception, I had to pack up and leave for the airport in order to catch my 
flight back home.

Conclusion
- ----------

All in all, I think the BoF was quite productive for all who attended 
(myself included), and I think that with the help of some of the MAAWG 
members and/or Andy Newton, a resolution for the SPF/S-ID problem can 
actually be found with MS, if we want to engange in that direction.  Also, 
I think the presentation at the panel was a good opportunity to clarify 
some of the most common misconceptions about SPF and S-ID.  And finally, 
Shevek and I managed to get some code done for the new Mail::SPF.

Julian.

References:
 1. http://www.maawg.org/about/
 2. http://www.maawg.org/news/GeneralMeeting_June05/
 3. http://www.mehnle.net/papers/spf-maawg4.ppt
    http://www.mehnle.net/papers/spf-maawg4.pdf
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFCv3XWwL7PKlBZWjsRArzwAKDyoC5hoPnxaZpyLLBhnMzt65syAgCgt8BM
g3lNPnUwQiVSy6BAiK855pk=
=qssY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----